An Axis heavy bomber is needed in Aces High

[Karnak]

The way I see it there are three choices for an Axis heavy bomber.  One from each of the three big Axis nations. (One of these may be impossible for HTC to get the information required to add it to AH)

Heinkel He177A-5 Greif

Engines:
2 x 2,950 hp (2200 kW) Daimler-Benz DB 610A/B engines, each comprising of two 12-cylinder inverted Vee DB 605 engines close-coupled to one propeller

Crew:
6 men

Performance:
Maximum speed 304mph at 19,685ft
Initial climb of 853ft per minute
Service ceiling of 26,245ft

Armament:
2 x MG151/20 20mm Cannons
3 x MG131 13mm machine guns
3 x MG81 7.92mm machine guns

Ordanance:
This was a point on which I was led to believe that it could carry 13,000lbs of bombs, but was then told that was not so.  I will need the Luftwaffe specialists to fill this data in.  What I have is this:
1,000kg internally
2 x Henschel Ms293 missiles

The He177A-5 is the biggest, and save for reliability issues (which would not come into play in AH), the best German bomber.  Many fans of Luftwaffe aircraft have requested it.

Pros:
Fastest of the three
Largest production of the three
Good defensive firepower
Extensive use in WWII

Cons:
Slow climb rate

Potential Issues:
Getting the Henschel Ms293 missiles to be workable in AH
Lack of clarity about the payload's size and makeup

Kawanishi H8K2 "Emily"

Engines:
4 x 1,850hp Kasei 22 Air-Cooled Radial 14 Cylinders Engines

Crew:
10 - 13 men

Performance:
Maximum speed 290mph at 14,750ft
Climb to 13,125ft in 8 minutes 53 seconds
Service ceiling of 28,750ft

Armament:
5 x Type 99 Model 1 20mm Cannons
7 x Type 97 7.7mm machine guns

Ordanance:
Maximum payload of 3,000kg
16 x 60kg bombs
8 x 250kg bombs
2 x 800kg bombs
2 x 1500kg bombs
2 x 800kg torpedos

Until a few days ago I didn't consider the H8K2 to be a real competitor in the heavy bomber role.  The information I had seen up until then stated that it carried a maximum of a 2,000kg payload.  Mitsu's info has shown that the H8K2 has a 3,000kg payload and is a true competitor in the heavy bomber category.

Pros:
Most durable of the three
Good defensive firepower and arcs
Great climb rate for a heavy bomber
It is a flying boat
Extensive use in WWII
Torpedo capable

Cons
Low production numbers
It is a flying boat

This thread about the H8K2 is the best thread I have seen in regards to an aircraft in a long time:
H8K2 Emily Information

Piaggio P.108

Engines:
4 x 1,350hp Piaggio P.IIX RC 35

Crew:
6 men

Performance:
Maximum speed 261mph at 12,800ft
Climb is unknown
Service ceiling of 26,400ft

Armament:
8 x 12.7mm machine guns
 
Ordanance:
Maximum payload of 3,500kg
Specific payloads are unknown


The P.108 would be a definate departure from the expected, but it would probably be the most difficult to do.  Data on this aircraft seems to be very limited.

Pros:
Heavy bombload
Good defensive firepower
Would be unique in the simulation world

Cons:
Very low production numbers
Very limited use in WWII
Slower than the other choices

Potential Issues:
Limited available data on the interior and on performance


What do you guys think?

[Pongo]

excelent post Karnak.
Emily and Greif in that order please.

[whgates3]

how about Ju 290 (A-5 model or higher) - from what I've read it had great defensive armament (7 x 20mm + 1 x 13mm), could carry a heavy bomb load (i've read between 3000kg - 19000lbs), but couldn't go very high (ceiling was under 20000') - not many built, though

[GRUNHERZ]

JU188 would be cool also and would more than adrress the weak defensive fire of JU88, which is IMHO it's only drawback as a bomber.


Karnak He177 could also carry three very heavy, 1000KG I think guided bombs.

[gatt]

Karnak,

P108 data, profiles and interiors are available on the 15th issue of "Ali d'Italia" series (italian/english text).

http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abe/BookDetails?bi=61038478

I have copy of the performance sheets (from the original manual) but the scanner is burned

[brady]

Karnak I own a coppy of that book and it contains all HTC would nead (afik) to model the P.108, also in a e mail exchange with Pyro once apon a time he stated that he was aware of the series and it's info.

[brady]

Karnak, the He 177. could afik cary 13k on a short run.

  Generaly spaking the He 177 is the best imo of the 3, howeaver the H8K adds so much to the game( since it is a seaplane) that I would half to back it. Howeaver the He 177 preformed traditional bombing mishions as a general rule, while this was a secondary aspect of the H8K's mishion profile.

[Staga]

Something I saved from old thread:

He 177A-5/R2
Dimensions:
- length: 22.0 m.
- height: 6.4 m.
- wingspan: 31.44 m.
Weight:
- empty: 16800 kg
- normal loaded: 27225 kg
- max. loaded: 31000 kg
Powerplant:
2xDaimler-Benz DB 610A-1/B-1 24 cylinders in v-inverted
- take-off power: 2x2950 hp
- power @ 2100 m: 2x3100 hp
Speed (27225 kg weight):
- max @ sea level: 395 km/h
- max @ 6000 m: 485 km/h; 435 km/h if loaded up to 31000 kg of weight
- cruise @ 6000: 415 km/h
Initial climb rate:
260 m/min
Climb times:
- to 3000 m., 10 minutes
- to 6000 m., 39 minutes
Range (without bombs, bombs bay replaced by fuel tanks):
- 2xHs 293 guided missiles: 5500 km
- 2xSD 1400 X "Frizt-X" guided bombs: 5000 km
Ceiling: 8000 m.
Defensive armament:
1xMG 81J 7.92 mm with 1000 rounds in the forward of cockpit and manually operated, 1xMG 151/20 20mm cannon with 300 rounds in the forward part of ventral gondola, 2xMG 81J with 1000 round each in the rear part of ventral gondola (or a single MG 131 with 1000 rounds), 2xMG 131 13 mm in forward dorsal turret with 1000 rounds each operated electrically by a remote position, 1xMG 131 with 1000 rounds in rear dorsal turret, 1xMG 151/20 with 800 rounds in tail and manually operated.
Bomb load:
- max. internal: 6000 kg. of bombs
- usual load: 16x50 kg, 4x250 kg or 2x500 kg in bombs bay + 2xLMA III sea mines, 2xLT-50 torpedoes, 2xHs 293 guided missil or 2xSD 1400 X "Fritz-X" guided bomb in external racks.
Date of deploy to operative units: February 1943

A-1/R1 Load
Bomb load:
- short distances (8802liter fuel): 48x50 kg, 12x250 kg, 6x500 kg or 4x1000 kg explosive bombs; 6x500 kg or 6x1000 kg armour-piercing bombs; 2x1000 kg + 2x1800 kg bombs or 2xLMA III sea mines + 2x1800 kg bombs
- medium distances: 32x50 kg, 8x250 kg, 4x500 kg or 4x1000 kg bombs
- long distances(12662liter fuel): 16x50 kg, 4x250 kg, 2x500 kg or 2x1000 kg bombs
 
*There are 4 fuselage tanks + 4 wing tanks.
*Each outer wing tank is 1120 liter in capacity.
*Each inner wing tank is 621 liter in capacity.
*The front 2 fuselage tanks are 1520 liter each(increasing to 3450l when bomb bay is blanked off).
*The rear 2 fuselage tanks are 1140 liter each.
So biggest possible fuel load is 12662 liter(which would give the 5500km range with missiles on the wings).
With the smaller fuselage tanks fitted total capacity is reduced to 8802 liter.

The DB DB 610 A-B, BR 0 u. 1 D.(Luft)T 3610 A-B, Motorenkarte, 1942,
shows the following min and max. values:
- start and emergency situation: 2800 rev/min.; 1,42 bar pressure: 960 l/hr
- low requirement, 2100 rev/min.; 1,0 bar pressure: 510 l/hr.

[Imp]

Ju 290A-7 Production: about 50
Max Speed: 445 km/h
Range: 6800km as a bomber/11500 Reconnaissance
Weapons: 3 Henschel Hs 293
Engines: 4 BMW 9-801 D-2 1850hp
Span: 42m
Length: 29.15m
Height: 6.83m
Wing Area: 204 suare meters

Do 217 had 4000kg bomb load and good defensive armament and it entered service in 1941.

Ju 188 had the same bombload as the Ju 88 with better speed and better defensive armament. Service entry was probly 1942.

Id prefer Do 217 for german heavy bomber but Ju 188 would be great too. He 177 would probly loose both engine on the same wing and become unflyable so its not really a good 4 engine bomber IMO.

The Italian 4 engine would be great

[brady]

Historic reliability is not a factor in AH, their are numiours weapons, engines, planes in AH that were notioursly unrealible, that always work perfectaly, such would be the case for the He  177.

[Soviet]

He-177 because it give the germans what they need the most, a heavy bomber.

Engine reliablility isn't modeled in any plane so don't go on the "make it unreliable" crusade (for example the Nik2J had HORRIBLE engine reliability).

The Emily would be nice but it was produced in low numbers and japan already has a decent buff (Ki-67) so the Emily can wait.

The Italian buff can wait because it was produced in smaller numbers and Italy didn't play as important a role as japan or germany.

Buffs needed in greatest to least are: He177, Tu-2S, H8K or some other good japanese buff, P.108.

[Karnak]

Guys, also remember that the bomber needs to be one that fits into the MA.  Bombers that do the job af the B-17 and Lanc at the same time aren't a great idea.

What is needed is choices, not an obvious choice that gets used in prefences over everything else.  The Ju290 looks like C-Hog syndrome to me.

[Soviet]

Originally posted by Karnak
Guys, also remember that the bomber needs to be one that fits into the MA.  Bombers that do the job af the B-17 and Lanc at the same time aren't a great idea.

What is needed is choices, not an obvious choice that gets used in prefences over everything else.  The Ju290 looks like C-Hog syndrome to me.

I agree, plus if I recall correctly the Ju-290 was more used for maritime recon than bombing.  7x Mg151/20 is just asking for an uber ackstar.

[Staga]

Small, not too precise comparison between bombers:

[Soviet]

Originally posted by Staga
Small, not too precise comparison between bombers:

ok that ends it, I WANT THE HE-177!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Ki-84 would be nice too