Who was the Best President? Clinton?

[Sandman]

Originally posted by midnight Target


Hehe, would this be considered "chumming"?

I think so.

[J_A_B]

Washington is the best.   His actions in office literally defined the presidency.

J_A_B

[mietla]

Good assessment Durr.

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Durr
LBJ: probaby the worst president of this period, LBJ did almost nothing right except signing some Civil rights legislation.  He royally screwed up the Vietnam war with the help of that idiot MacNamara.  He also set about some disastrous social programs.
At least he had the sense not to run for reelection.(2)

While I agree with you that LBJ's conduct in Vietnam was atrocious, you vastly understate and underestimate his accomplishments.  "Signed" some civil rights legislation?  This was legislation that another president you rated much more highly, Kennedy, was completely ineffective in getting through the same Congress that LBJ managed to deftly guide it through less than a year after Kennedy's death.

In addition, the space race began under Eisenhower, not Kennedy.  The major visionary and champion of space exploration during that period?  Senate Majority Leader Lyndon Johnson, of course... there's a reason Houston was and is central to NASA, and LBJ is it.

As well, Johnson may have set in place some disastrous social programs (which you attribute fully to him while ignoring his very real contributions to civil rights legislation), but hindsight is 20-20; at the time, this legislation appeared progressive, new, arguably necessary.  That Johnson was able to guide it successfully through Congress again proves his mastery of the legislative process.  You earlier explained that, according to your criteria for rating "greatness", some presidents, "though I disagree with things they did politically, they were successfuly at getting their agendas across."

Why doesn't LBJ fit into this successful agenda category?  He was central to passing civil rights and welfare legislation, key elements of his agenda, through a Congress ideologically (though not partisanly) opposed to it.  I certainly understand the animosity he deserves for Vietnam, and in my mind it drags him to the bottom of any pack, but give credit where credit is due.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Shuckins]

I guess people tend to vote in these polls for the Presidents of their own times.  How else can one explain Bill Clinton being ranked ahead of Franklin Roosevelt?  The challenges Clinton faced during his administration were miniscule compared to those faced by Roosevelt (Unless one counts the challenges he faced defending his administration from criticism surrounding the many scandals.)

Regards, Shuckins

[Krusher]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying


While I agree with you that LBJ's conduct in Vietnam was atrocious, you vastly understate and underestimate his accomplishments.  
-- Todd/Leviathn

One of the most facinating things about LBJ was his ability to arm twist people into doing things they never would have normaly done. The recently released audio tapes show him to be a master at manipulation.

[Sikboy]

Originally posted by Shuckins
I guess people tend to vote in these polls for the Presidents of their own times.  How else can one explain Bill Clinton being ranked ahead of Franklin Roosevelt?  The challenges Clinton faced during his administration were miniscule compared to those faced by Roosevelt (Unless one counts the challenges he faced defending his administration from criticism surrounding the many scandals.)

Regards, Shuckins

It also helps that today a lot of people don't see Roosevelt as the man who saved America from the ravages of the great depression, but rather as the socialist bastard who got us locked into this welfare state with his marxist new deal nonsense, and then he had the gall to let our ships get sunk at Pearl without even giving Kimmel and Short a peck on the cheek and a minutes warning.

-Sikboy

[Fishu]

Clinton sure was far better president than George "Monkey" Bush Jr.

With not just Bush Jr. making that far after presidental elections, but also Gore coming the second, I can only shake my head in disbelief.
Puppets!

[Shuckins]

Sikboy,

The people of the 1930's weren't worried about the dangers of "socialist programs."  They were worried about starvation, among other things.  They needed a helping hand from the government.  If you compare family photos of people who lived during that period with those alive today certain things will immediately stand out.  One of these is that the people from the 30's, especially rural people, don't look nearly as well nourished and comfortable as the people of today.

Several of the New Deal programs were eliminated during WWII and in the years immediately after because the economy was improving and there was no longer a need for them.  Real abuse of this type of program did not begin until the late 1960's and early 1970's.  What was done to the Social Security fund by Congress during the seventies and eighties is a prime example.  Had they kept their mitts off of that money instead of spending it on pork-barrel programs Social Security would not be in the dire straits it is today.  Despite attempts to fix it, the program will probably go bankrupt in about 20 years.

I have no problem with well-run government programs.  It's just that there are so few of them!

Regards, Shuckins

[Sikboy]

Originally posted by Shuckins
Sikboy,

The people of the 1930's weren't worried about the dangers of "socialist programs."  They were worried about starvation, among other things.  

Right, and as the greatest generation dies off and a becomes a smaller and smaller percentage of the poll taking population, FDRs popularity will continue to sink in relation to other presidents, since those voting see him in a different light. I mean, although I was not alive during the depression, and certainly didn't vote in '32, I can understand why FDR was popular, and I can even understand why people elected the blueblooded POS.

-Sikboy

[majic]

Durr:

Good assessment, but I would probably rate Kennedy lower (think much of his mystique is from being assassinated) and FDR higher (while I'm not usually in favor of big government, they were the right policies at the right time).

Book is still out on Bush Jr.  Still not completely sure about him.

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by Sikboy


It also helps that today a lot of people don't see Roosevelt as the man who saved America from the ravages of the great depression, but rather as the socialist bastard who got us locked into this welfare state with his marxist new deal nonsense, and then he had the gall to let our ships get sunk at Pearl without even giving Kimmel and Short a peck on the cheek and a minutes warning.

-Sikboy

Now THAT is good stuff!

[midnight Target]

Regarding what was important in the 30's.

My dad went into the Army Air Corps in 1942. He was 6' tall and weighed 125lbs. He wasNOT  considered unusually built at the time. He was considered "tall" though. This is almost completely due to diet and the opportunity to obtain food. The 1930's and into the 40's were difficult times for all.

hey this color thing is pretty cool!

[midnight Target]

One more thing....

The best President WAS Roosevelt.





Teddy Roosevelt.

[Kieran]

With not just Bush Jr. making that far after presidental elections, but also Gore coming the second, I can only shake my head in disbelief.

Color me baffled, I have only the vaguest idea of what you are saying. I know English is your second language, can you elaborate?

I guess you had to live here during the '92 election, and hear Clinton start the lies. I listened to the candidates, and when it came to be Clinton's turn I actually knew little about him. When asked about his marijuana smoking in the past, did he stand up and say, "Yes, I did it, but that was a different time, and long ago at that." Nope, instead of giving the answer that would have earned him votes and respect, he said, "I smoked, but didn't inhale". That response is insulting to the collective intelligence of the country. I knew from that point on that anyone with the nerve to stand up on national television and tell such an obvious lie, especially over such a non-issue, wasn't to be trusted on any issue. I had a student at the time who was all-Clinton, and I warned her that, if elected, Clinton would bring shame to the Whitehouse like no one before. I need to find that student BTW to collect the $5 she owes me...

...then we come to Gore. Al was ok, merely a puppet in the background as so many VP's are. Then the campaign fund scandal kicks up, Gore is caught with his hand in the cookie jar, and he utters the infamous "No legal controlling authority" line, and I said, "uh-oh". Once again, I didn't have to be Nostradamus to see that line was going to leave a mark. Flash forward to a cold December day when the Democrats took a victory lap around the Whitehouse, Al stuck his hand on Clinton's shoulder and proclaimed him as one of the most virtuous people he ever met. "uh-oh" again.

The election wasn't stolen, it was lost, and rightfully so. Granted, I am only an ignorant American, but it seems to me that if you willingly elect someone you know is lying to your face, you should only expect more of the same.

Bush is not perfect, not even close, but he has been man enough to admit a drinking and cocaine problem in the past. The constant references to him as "monkey boy" only shows the extent to which some don't think for themselves, but regurgitate the lines handed to them from those media moguls they admire. On what basis is this observation? Mediocre grades? Pampered background? Hey, anyone smart enough to fly an all-weather fighter has my respect in the intelligence department.