AN idea on giving AH bombers a role......

[GunnerCAF]

My own squad has also practised 'dropping on lead' and it works rather well

Revvin,

Do you use VOX to call the drop?  Do you think internet delay has much effect on dropping at the same time?

I have wanted to try this but have not had the chance.  It seems like VOX delays are most time quite good.

Thanks,
Gunner

[GunnerCAF]

Mitsu,

Well done, WTG!

[Revvin]

GunnerCAF> We use VOX extensively, we feel lost without it infact and hardly ever type. The lag really has never been a problem. We have practised this drop on lead tactic and employed it in the MA on numerous occassions and it works very well, infact tonight we held another squad night and 4 of us formed up and dropped on my lead and hit an enemy HQ, we targeted the main building with a slavo 14, 0.30 delay and the eggs dropped extremely close together.

[GunnerCAF]

Revvin,

Thanks, now that sounds neat  Another good reason to fly tight formations of bombers.  One thing I like about this game is it does change, and there are always new things to try.  

Gunner

[lazs2]

ya know... I don't really care that much how the field is closed but.... I really hate making it "unusable".  It apears that "unusable" is what you are after.  If a field is closed by some sort of "tonage on target" then it should immediately become captured.  
lazs

[Wotan]

The problem:
5 jabos kill fighters, and vehicles at a field, kill the town, vulch, and wait for a goon to show up. They can do this faster than a bomber simply carpetbombing the field.

This aint a problem. jabos always could and always have been able to level a field much better then bombers.

This was true with the laser sites this is true now.

Them bish typhie raids or dhog raids or 190a8 raids or chog raids have always been a more significant part of base capture then bombers.

They (jabo raids) were done before 1.10 and the are done now. Thats a bs arguement and you know it. Either that or you havent been here long enough to know. After all thats what fighterbombers are for.

[hazed-]

Originally posted by Revvin
The way it is now is already geared towards carpet bombing and is more realistic in the fact that you have to use salvo and delays with the correct speed to get good results.

no problem with using salvoes if you'll read what i read its that there isnt much bang for your buck if you happen to miss, even by quite small margins.

With tonnage on target you simply have to point your plane in the general vicinity of the airfield and drop a full salvo with zero delay and have all your bombs drop in the same location and this is not only less historically correct but also moving back towards a more arcade like bomber setup.

people would only start doing this if the total tonnage on target is a very low number.Im not suggesting tonnage on target is by any means an easy amount.Also this would be in addition to the normal capture methods we have not instead of.

In WW2 allied command didn’t just say 'hey drop where you like in the general vicinity guys'

you'd be surprised.read about bomber command.

they gave the formations targets to hit such as factory complexes, saturation bombing of airfields.

YOU said it not me. This is exactly what im talking about. In real life if enough bombs fell on an airfield it was taken out due to the time it took to repair it versus the next raid that put them back to square 1.I think you have the wrong idea of what im asking for here.What im talking about is giving something to those players who cant hit a hanger bang on every run.Sure the less accurate drops should be less rewarding but they should cause some trouble for the enemy players.Half the time i cant find bomber pilots to fly with me lately online is due to the fact they say they cant hit anything.So i offer to calibrate for them and tell them when to drop.In WW2 this was how it was really done revvin the majority of the time.In real life the stauration of the local area also hindered the repair crews.Mines, fused bombs, duds, craters etc all stopped or degraded the effectiveness of bases.What do our bombs do in AH if they dont actually hit an object? nada.

If the bombers did not destroy these targets then they had to go back again and do it all over again. Allied command did not say 'ah well chaps you got the bombs in the general area its ok we'll pretend the target is dead'

you havent read any reports on what effect they now think the bombing actually had on production have you?
during the war they were told the industries are smashed because it was better for morale but it was discovered that most industries were in production in secret complexes or underground etc and that the aircraft industry in germany actually increased in production every year up until the end of the war despite constant attacks.
infrastructure: railways/roads plus fuel refineries etc were among the hardest hit and easiest to see results on and some of these are area targets too.you could argue that this is all the more reason for not having players have much of an effect in AH but comon lets not forget this is a GAME and were are here for enjoyment as well as simulation.

My own squad has also practised 'dropping on lead' and it works rather well as long as the bombers fly close formation which we do and is not too much to ask when the bomber only has to fly the plane and not calibrate his norden. With 5 or 6 bombers you could make a mess of a large field, with calibration you can flatten it with good use of salvo and delay settings.

The new bomber systems are a huge improvement and something that guys who regularly fly bombers wanted, to change it back you may as well take away all the work that went into the v1.10 bombsight and give us back the boring arcadey old bombsight.

To change to tonnage on target now would be like snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

nope you really didnt read what i was saying did you. and btw not everyone has a squad to practice with.I do and really enjoy squad nights etc but most of the guys that join my missions arent experts in bombing or very well versedin formation flying for that matter.The point is though is that bombers are not much of an exciting choice for a player who thinks he isnt going to actualy hit anything important.
Think about it revvin we bomb to blow stuff up and as it stands if you miss by even a small margin you get to see a few craters. you dont get huge explosions or even get to see everyone elses bombs.every formation bombing mission is the same if you only see what you drop yourself too.1 or 100 bombers all looks the same when the bombs actually land on a base.So i ask you what is the big incentive to bomb?

Im like you id imagine.I love to bomb, I want to try to do big runs where i see loads of bombers just like the real ones in the war. I like to feel im helping win the war for the country i play for (and i love gunning ).However i set up a lot of missions for all players, not just my squadmates and this newbie lack of interest in bombing is what im noticing.I think we need something to address the problem.

[Revvin]

Well now you're done trying to insult my intelligence regarding bomber command I'll tell you've I've read more than enough to tell me tonnage on target bears little resemblance to real life, the only real connection you can make between ToT in AH and RL is that a bomber command alloted a certain ammount of ord to do the job, if those factories were still up and still producing bomber command jolly well sent them back to finish the job!

What you appear to be asking for is the same tonnage on target they have in Warbirds and it's totally unrealistic and quite frankly insulting to bomber pilots. ToT as you have described above would mean flying to the target, dropping your ord in the centre of the field then returning home, repeat and rinse until the base goes down. No skill involved just shuttle bombing back and fore with no need for salvo or any delay just get it over target and pump the fire button like you're down some penny arcade. Just drop in the centre of the field and magically all the targets are destroyed after you've made a few shuttle run's. I don't care how high the ToT would be set it would not be realistic I know I also play WB and was interested to see how ToT would work, when I saw it and tried it I found it to be complete and utter nonsense.

You don't need to be in a squad to practice, you can go fly the training arena and use the computer to show where your ord will go. This is not about a few guys knowing how to do it or squads practising together to perfect it comes down to a little practice and some appear to be too lazy to do this.

[ET]

Hazed, I agree with most of what you say and think the bomber role in AH is now next to useless. But I think old timers are giving up the role of bombing in greater numbers then newbies.

In the earlier tours I would take a bomber up to kill fuel ammo or barracks at the next base down the line from the one under attack to hinder them from helping the base under attack. With carpet bombing I can't do that anymore. I can carpet bomb and get 60% hits but can not do anything worthwhile to hinder the enemy so I no longer bother taking up bombers. I cut my bombing runs last tour by about 80%. This tour so far I have not flown one. I used to fly 200-300 a tour.

Also,If you check the stats,plane versus country,you will find that these 3 planes, B17, B26 and Lanc. are now being killed at more then twice the rate now as before the introduction of formations. But the C47 is being killed at the same rate. How did the gunners in bombers get so dumb so quick. When I am fighting in a bomber, it seems like I am using .22 cal. instead of .50.cal.

Combine that with drones that are so dumb that they can't get back in formation even if you go back for them and it becomes a lesson in frustration.

So until some changes are made that brings back some equity to the bomber role I will stick to Jabo's and other jobs although if I see one of your missions up I will try to join.

[SKurj]

1 of the posts from the thread in my Sig...(click it and grab a drink sit back and read...)

Tryin to come up with ideas to prevent a steamroller effect takin place...

Supply: The farther a base is away from HQ the slower the rebuild time. The more bases a team has the longer rebuild time also. If a team has fewer than it started with its rebuild time at bases will decrease due to shorter supply routes. Porking its supply convoys etc will still slow down the auto rebuild tho.

R&D: The better a team is doing, the slower its R&D score increases (what do we need new aircraft types for? we are winning. say the politicians +)

Base capture revisited: When the front encompasses a base that base does not automatically fall into enemy hands. Its Supply is cutoff (no auto rebuild) and all facilities at the base must be destroyed and troops dropped before it can be captured.

If a base or city has been encompassed but not captured, any damage inflicted on that area, does NOT affect the fluid front at all.

Bombing: Bombs made less accurate, larger blast radius. All bombs dropped within the facility perimeter are scored. Any that actually destroy a building recieve a modifier based on the building type. A facility cannot be destroyed unless the buildings are destroyed. What I am tryin to say is, 10,000 misses yet within the perimeter cannot destroy the facility.
Rockets score if they hit (not neccessarily destroy)a structure or vehicle.

I think this will give the Dive Bomber a better place in AH. With bomb inaccuracy increased with altitude. If buffs wanna fly at 30k, they'd better bring more planes and carpet bomb.

The extreme visibility range I think needs some adjustment in AH, its too easy to fly at 30k and spot that C47 at 3k below u.
Would also add to immersion.



SKurj

[hazed-]

revvin jees please read what i wrote. im not trying to insult your intelligence but what you said was quite comical for the fact you hit on points that are now among the most controversual of the entire war:

In WW2 allied command didn’t just say 'hey drop where you like in the general vicinity guys'  

this is precisely what our RAF bomber command is accused of doing to cities like dresden and Hamburg.Both were of little military value and are in our modern age a questionable target for war.There are even accusations of it being terrorism against the civilian population.Im British and im proud that we won the war but there were highly questionable acts performed by all sides.thats all i was refering to (with sarcasm admitedly )

Allied command did not say 'ah well chaps you got the bombs in the general area its ok we'll pretend the target is dead'

[/b]

and for this i was refering to the bombings that took place during Normandy landingd and many others where we attacked targets and failed to destroy them but went ahead with the landings anyway because high command didnt accept reports to the contrary.They apparently marked them as destroyed when they were still operational.I just thought it was kind of funny/ironic what you said.

and you seem to be of the opinion that i favour some old warbirds idea? well i can tell you ive never played it so that isnt true. If they have the system you talk of and it doesnt work then fair enough it would have to be adapted so what you describe doesnt happen.I agree that sort of thing would be lame.

However i still have to say it.If 18 lancasters flew over an airfield and dropped (hold on lets see here) either 262 x 1000lbers or even 334 x 500lbers(+18x4000lbers) all over the base that place is going to be non operational!! i mean comeon!
The base in AH would still have to be captured and covered/controlled with friendly fighters.
Isnt that in fact more realistic than having 3 hangers knocked down with a set number of lbs for each structure?

I dont want dropping anywhere on the base to become the normal practice here.It should always be secondary in rewards to good targeting but it should have some positive effect for the player who has flown in there and tried to help.I want people who are new to AH to try out bombing and feel good about what they have done, not say on vox 'what a waste of time!,my bombs just hit the runway' etc.

ET thnx for reply i think you understand what i mean here.I really do like the salvo bombing but even with my enthusiasm for the bombers im becoming less interested in them because they serve no tactical or strategic value in the present MA.too much risk for too little gain.
even if we threw in a few more things to hit at a base that could even have more effects like trucks and jeeps(for show),officers mess(slows recovery?), tower control or firestations (hangers stay smoking longer) or even negative perk value targets like hospitals or prisoner of war camps. ok i digress
as long as a new player see's "you have destroyed * insert target *" hes going to enjoy it a little more

anyway thats what i think

[Revvin]

this is precisely what our RAF bomber command is accused of doing to cities like dresden and Hamburg

I kind of figured this might be the direction and you've taken these events totally out of context as to what we're talking about and that is airfields. Those targets you speak of were to destroy the moral of the country and not to destroy a specific target such as an airfield. High up in Allied command did'nt really have a clue as to how accurate their bombers were early on in the war and really believed the target's they were setting were destroyed. It was only later on in the war that bombsights became more sophisticated with the help of radio guidance and the bombardiers becoming more skilled by virtue of the fact more were surviving as the war drew on and the Allies gained air superiority over much of Europe with the advent of planes such as the P51 and P47 with longer range. If Allied command was happy to carry on with this indiscriminate bombing as you describe then the bombsight would never have improved or the need for pathfinding forces to be employed they would have carried on bombing willy nilly happy to pretend that the targets were dead.

and for this i was refering to the bombings that took place during Normandy landingd and many others where we attacked targets and failed to destroy them but went ahead with the landings anyway because high command didnt accept reports to the contrary.They apparently marked them as destroyed when they were still operational.I just thought it was kind of funny/ironic what you said

And you change the context of the topic again, you spoke of airfields in your first post and not of the Normandy landings They were hardly going to halt the Normandy landings because during the operation the bombers missed some of their targets, they could only feign an attack at Calais while the floating dock was being towed into the bay around Normandy. The weather was changing for the worst and they had to go it was a case of now or never or at least now or wait until next year and hope the Germans don't get their acttogether in the meantime and bomb the hell out of the troops and armour assembled for the invasion. As it was the bad weather a few days after destroyed the American's floating bridge to the shore and very near destroyed the Britsh one too.

The base in AH would still have to be captured and covered/controlled with friendly fighters.
Isnt that in fact more realistic than having 3 hangers knocked down with a set number of lbs for each structure?

3 hangars killed by a thoughtful use of salvo and delay and executed with proper calibration or killed because someone dropped the right ammount of ord to tip the scales to pretend the hangar is dead?

I dont want dropping anywhere on the base to become the normal practice here.It should always be secondary in rewards to good targeting but it should have some positive effect for the player who has flown in there and tried to help.I want people who are new to AH to try out bombing and feel good about what they have done, not say on vox 'what a waste of time!,my bombs just hit the runway' etc.

But this is exactly what will happen. Why in the hell would new players want to learn how to use salvo's and delay's and how to calibrate to get accuracy when they just need to point and click. How in the hell would point and click make you feel good about your drop? If someone is moaning about wasting their time then they should use their time in the training arena and learn how it's done. It's not that hard.

Tell ya what I'm not as hot in a fighter as some of the guys here so for instant gratification I want the planes remodelled so that when I fire enough rounds in the general direction of a plane it goes boom.

[SKurj]

Current bombing model sucks...

Overall buffs contribute less to the war than even lasz

Sayin "go learn it" ain't cuttin it...

I have been here 2 yrs, i used to buff a quite often... now I don't at all.. no point to it.  The rewards are too few and far between to make the expenditure in time and patience worth it.

Comparing fighter skillz to buffing skillz doesn't work +)  In fighters alot of the time your target maybe no better than yourself so ya do get the odd kill... in buffs it seems very few are hittin on demand, and even then...  so they take a hangar down or 2...

Now hop in a jabo, and u can take down any hangar anytime without fail, and if u want the field ... the jabos with support will accomplish the task much faster than your buff squad (even with support)



Skurj

[GunnerCAF]

Maybe one-way suicide Jabo raids will be fixed next?  

Gunner

[WhiteHawk]

bottom line is...
  so a few guys were able to hit a hangar or 2 with 30000lbs of
explosives.  The vast majority of bombers in here, do not like
the new model.  Why?  Because there is no way to make sim bombing realistic.   Is the sight calibration more realistic?  Yes.
  Is the impact of 40000lbs of bombs landing on an airfeild
realistic.  Helllll noooo!!.  I have posted this before,
i put 42000lbs of bombs on an airbase, and came away with
2 gunemplacements and an ammo bunker.  42000lbs of
explosives on a target the size of an airbase is a knockout
punch, period.  Not an insignificant scratch.  
Mitsus picture proves the point.  
  HTC took away precision guided bombs for the sake of
realism, thats ok.  They still require precision hits though.
  Thats not ok.  A quick solution, increase the blast radius.
We all seen what 4000lbs of explosives did to the
Murrah building in oklahoma city.  That was a concrete
steel-reinforced building. Hangars are tin sheds.
 Im no chemist, but I dont think
Fertilizer bombs are the pinnacle of explosive potency, either.
  Mitsus salvo kills everything on that side of the field! Not just
2 bomber hangars.  The impact of mitsus expert calibration
and skill is a big fat 0!  there are still bomber hangars left.
  HTC, increase the blast radius, to mathc the realism of the
calibration, and the bombers will return to the skies.  
  I will guarantee huge formations, which is great for everybody.