AN idea on giving AH bombers a role......

[Shiva]

Maybe one-way suicide Jabo raids will be fixed next?

God, no, Gunner; that would interfere with Lasz' ability to wave his noodle substitute the way he wants to. After all, no matter how much he whines about how bombers shouldn't be allowed to be used in ways that he claims they never were during the war, he should be able to use fighters in any way he wants, including ways that they were never used during the war.

As I replied to Karnak's post in the A New Low in MA Balance thread in the general discussion area:

I was one of the Rook defenders at A20 when a wave of 10-15 P-47s came in and simply Kamikazed the VH and FHs. They didn't even try to survive. None of the 5 or so Rook defenders went down in the attack. That kind of crap is about as low as it gets.

*snicker*

And this is the kind of play that lasz2 wants to preserve with his fanatical insistence that level bombers not be able to affect fighter operations in any way.

If I ever needed proof that the transfinite supply of aircraft at fields and the ability of pilots to take off again without consequence immediately after being killed distorted gameplay, there it is.[/COLOR]

[vorticon]

how abouts we make the runways destroyable objects. and at 50,000 pounds of bombs is REALLY not that much how much can a formation of lancs drop

14,000 pounds *3

thats somewhere around 35-40 thousand pounds so all it would take is 2 lanc formations to take out a base. with the current system it takes a lot more tonnage and people t oremove a base. even if you can get your sight and delay set up perfectly it still wilkl take alot of tonnage to finish off a base. of course you could always just kill the flak and roll in the c47's with a large number of escorts.

[Sabre]

There are some changes coming for bombing, though it's more in the realm of tweaking than genuine change.  I can't go into details just yet, as I've got to finish my "Interview with HiTech" article for "The Wargamer;" don't want to steal my own thunder, after all .  My impression is he's been giving it time to see how the community wrings out the new system.  Small changes will be tried first because they can be worked into the system without major code effort.  Again without going into more detail, what the changes he has in mind will do is make bombers the platform of choice against field towns and strat targets, but keep the Jabo the preferred platform for suppression of enemy air defenses (i.e. horking the field itself).

A couple of things I'd like to see:

1) Make large structures like hangers, town buildings, and strat buildings fairly easy to destroy with bombs and rockets, but next to impossible for machineguns and light cannon (i.e. less than 37 mm) to take out.  Add blast radius to bombs to increase their anti-structure kill potential.  Keep weapons effectiveness against  other field objects (fuel, ammo, barraks, radar, ack) the same, so that Jabo's would still be the preferred method of hitting these more pin-point and dispersed targets.  Jabo's could still kill building...they'd just need to take bombs and rockets to do it, thereby reguiring more Jabo pilots to wipe out the town than bomber pilots.

2) Add much more light ack to field-towns and strat facilities, such that Jabo attacks on them are more difficult.

3) Make towns and strat targets larger (i.e. more buildings).

4) Do away with resupply of strat targets (this is the gamiest part of the current strat system, IMO.

5) Add crater damage, such that if a whole mess of bombers do drop all across the field, it will simulate the impact such mass raids actually had on airbase operations.  It will not prevent a/c spawning (accept where the bombers get lucky and kill the hangers), but that's okay.  Afterall, such raids were not out to kill the a/c on the ground necessarily -- though they undoubtably got them now and again -- but rather were attempting to temporarily prevent operations...and to kill as many pilots and ground personnel as possible of course.  A skilled AH pilot could still take off in most cases, but would have to be darned carefull about it.  Bombers would be more affected, because of their need for long take off and landing rolls.

[ET]

I have watched this game evolve for two years now. Early on there was 2 FHs at a small base and 1 at a medium base that could be taken down with 1K of bombs on each one. Three of us went out in B17s and took out all the fighter hangers at 6 bases just to see if we could and we did. Many complaints and 2 days later, the hangers were hardened and it now took 2.5 K of bombs to take out a hanger. Later on after more complaints about hangers being too easy to kill they added a third FH to small bases and 3 FHs to medium bases making FHs harder to take out.
I never thought that this was unfair. The hangers were too easy to kill and did spoil the game.But there was still many complaints about hangers being killed and then the name calling started. The bombers adjusted to the parameters of the game and kept on trucking.
Bombers have always been fairly easy to kill for the good pilots who know how to do it and I never had any complaints as to how often I went down as a hunka, hunka of flaming wreck. Fortunes of War. s all around. I could still take my fair share down with me.
The way bombers are now since formations have been introduced is that you ping his wing from your tail gun 20 or more times and he still bores in for the kill. Something has changed with the bomber guns and I don't know what it is but it isn't fair. At least in my way of thinking.
I think there needs to be a rethinking of what we are playing here and what the roles of each plane is in relation to the game.
Someone has to come up with a plan for strategy and tactics that fit the game and will always fit no matter what the new editions are.
All new additions should fit the overall game plan and not the game plan fit the new additions.

[lazs2]

The problem lies with those who wish to "affect the war"...  before the fluffs bomb drops were made less laughable the fluffers could easily spoil and enrage.   They did it by flying high over targets that had few or no defenders (the higher the alt, the lower the fighter density).  

 fields that were being furballed between were prime targets for the talentless to castrate.   They simply dropped from alt with lazer guided accuracy.   The worst that could happen was that someone might kill em after they dropped.    They all loved this and defended it with a zeal out of proportion to their lack of talent.

Now... high level bombing is more realistic and can be ignored if it is only one little man (even if he controls 3 planes and a crew of 30)..  If they come in lowere then they hit the fighter density..  Even I will kill em if there isn't anything else close to kill...

So... now that it is obvious that AH targets are jabo targets and the talentless suicide jabo...  

Well... what do the fluffers do?  they throw out the obvious and say... "well, if the targets are all jabo targets then we want our fluffs to be better jabos... better jabos in fact than... well.. jabos."

If area targets and "helping the war effort" aren't good enough for the fluffers then what the hell are they doing flying fluffs in the first place?
lazs

[Shiva]

fields that were being furballed between were prime targets for the talentless to castrate.

So... now that it is obvious that AH targets are jabo targets and the talentless suicide jabo...

Can't have it both ways, Lasz... if you accept that jabos are the proper way to take down a field, you have to accept that a small group of kamikazes can shut down your field. After all, you can't expect the FE to have to keep track of whether the idiot who augered 1 second after popping an FH did so because he never intended to pull out, or whether he just made a mistake and released his bombs too low, or lost his elevators to a defender and figured that he might as well make sure that his drop didn't miss, since there was no way he was making it back anyway.

You see, Lasz, you're just painting yourself further and further into a corner. First you whine about how horrible it was that the old LGB bombing system allowed buffers to pork airfields so you couldn't fly your fighter the way you wanted to, and claimed that all the buff drivers complaining that the old LGB-oriented target distribution made bombing pointless under the new bombing system and wanted targets worth bombing were really demanding that they be given back the ability to pork airfields so you couldn't fly your fighter the way you want to. Now you're whining about how other fighters have the ability to zoom in and pork airfields so you can't fly your fighter the way you want to.

Based on your moaning about how people are ruining your ability to continue your precious furballing (and the denigrating labels you attach to them in an effort to marginalize their positions), it's clear that what you want is the ability to take off in whatever plane you want, with all the fuel you want, from any field you want, regardless of what anyone else does to the field. So why don't you just shut up here and go over to the Bug Reports forum and complain there that the game lets other people ruin your furballing fun... and then watch and see how many people   laugh at your sorry ass.

[jonnyb]

One of the best usages of carpet bombing I've seen to date was last night.  I was flying a P51B over a knight base and watched a formation of b-17s drop their sticks.  Either his drop was affected by the wind, or what he did was on purpose.  Either way, the effect was superb.  I was just rolling over the runway when his bombs began to hit.  Since the knights were upping the usual array of base defenders to ward off our attack, the runway was littered with planes trying to get airborne.

All that changed as the bombs began to detonate...straight up the runway they went.  The bombers must have knocked out at least 6 aircraft on the ground.  It was a thing of beauty .

Anyway, it just goes to show that the bombers are indeed still an effective part of the game.

[Sabre]

What a beautiful tale, Jonnyb...I love a story with a happy ending.

[Turbot]

Where are the big bomber groups we had hoped for with 1.10?  These days I mostly see lone wolf guys in three ship formations. Fighters are less inclined to even go after them now - they are largely percieved as harmless unless you get in gun range.  (i'll go chase them if no fighters are around to go after instead).  

IMHO bombing has become quite lonely and boring work.  (Yes I know how to bomb, I can lay em out as well or better as pictures above)   to those who bother to do it, you are a damn sight more patient than I.

[hazed-]

revvin, I wasnt taking the subject 'out of context', if you'll notice you made a distinction between different types of targets by saying:

'they gave the formations targets to hit such as factory complexes, saturation bombing of airfields'

and incidently you said saturation bombing of airfields and promptly go on to say its unrealistic.make up your mind here.

anyway we have crossed wires.

I agree plain old dumping of bombs all at once on a base would be crap
 what if we used a grid system where it covers a base.If 80%+ of the grid is hit with bombs this causes a shut down?
it would at least force players to drop in a spread pattern.

50000 tonnes would be too low(forgot about 14k lancs) but also if we did do tonnage on target and set it at say 100,000 to 200,000 tonnes to close a field(this figure would obviously need testing) this would require 3 to 5 players in lancs to work together(6 to 12 if in b17s) which equates to 9 to 15 bombers (lanc) 18 to 36 (b17s)and I think that this would in fact be saturation bombing which you yourself said was what they did to airbases. so where can you say its less realistic than popping 3 hangers and shutting all operations? which as you have seen 'some' players would be able to do alone with just 3 bombers and good aim(though god knows how they get so good ).

revvin you can still do accurate raids, bases would still have our capture system, but for once think of the new players and of those of us who just cant seem to get a consistant behaviour from our calibration.We are no longer enjoying the game.do you see what i mean?

Im not asking for simplicity.Like i said i prefer carpet bombing type behaviour but with the effect of bombs which miss structures being absolutely nothing i feel its unfair to expect all players to be happy with it.You may love to practice offline for hours on end but the majority of us cant be arsed to put in that sort of practice.

either more small structure targets on a field that give a few perks out or some way to tell if  base has been plastered into an unusable state is needed.

laz you are truelly the first person ive ever seen that actually has developed a predjudice verses a type of aircraft akin to racism in the sorry real world.Bombers are in the game. DEAL with it or go to the dueling arena where you have EXACTLY what you are asking for.Noone goes there to jabo bases or to bomb from alt....oh actually let me rephrase that.......no one goes there period.why dont you go and see if you can put the same effort into starting it up and getting others like you in there just as we all did trying to promote the CT?
of course you wont because you know it would never take off.

how about we start accusing the furballers of stopping our jabo and bombing fun? its laughable how dumb his rants are.

[Revvin]

and incidently you said saturation bombing of airfields and promptly go on to say its unrealistic.make up your mind here.

Yes saturation bombing by HUNDREDS of bombers over the course of days sometimes but if those bombers dumped all their ord in one place such as a ToT system would allow it would never have washed with Allied command, saturation bombing of airfields meant hitting EVERYTHING that's why they threw such large numbers because of the innaccuracy of the bombsight it had nothing to do with "oh lets dump X ammount of ord and we'll pretend it's dead" if a field only took bomb hits to it's grassy area's these would be bulldozed in a matter of hours (providing there were not fuse delay bombs unexploded...but hey that's a different topic altogether ) In a matter of hours the field would be operational whereas if they did the job as Allied command envisaged the hangars, fuel and offices/tower/barracks would also be destroyed for the ultimate denial of use to that airfield.

I agree plain old dumping of bombs all at once on a base would be crap
what if we used a grid system where it covers a base.If 80%+ of the grid is hit with bombs this causes a shut down?
it would at least force players to drop in a spread pattern.

Well glad you finally see it, believe me this is what happens in Warbirds right now with their ToT, you can take a dump anywhere and have it count and pummel the fire button like you're at some cheap arcade this is why I am so against ToT because I've seen what a complete joke it is. The grid system is a more sensible way of doing it but HiTech recently said they are making the airfield target's more densely packed so even with terrible calibration you will still hit something.

The system we have right now is how it should be, infact it could be harder...a lot harder if I had my way. There really is not any magical mystical art to bombing in v1.10 it takes a little practice to yeild very good results and even using the 'drop on lead' type of drop still yields good results and only one person needs to calibrate.

As for Lazs, well this would be just another in a long line of thread's he's entered and been rude and condescending to the bombing community.

[lazs2]

shiva... I was merely pointing out that the talentless will allways seek out a way affect the game with the least amount of skill.   I am also simply pointing out that the targets we have are better suited to jabo.    

If I had my choice I would rather have suicide jabo raids to contend with tho since i a least get to kill several of em before the field is porked and I have to find another fight.

I think it is quite clear to anyone who looks at it objectively that the reason for suicide jabo attacks being on the increase is the decrease in fluff effectiveness at high alt...  There is a vacumn created that is sucking in the talentless.  

I really don't care how they play so long as my choices aren't affected too much.  
lazs

[runny]

Originally posted by lazs2

If I had my choice I would rather have suicide jabo raids to contend with tho since i a least get to kill several of em before the field is porked and I have to find another fight.

And, to some extent, that's why jabos bug me less as well.  It's not that they are any more or less talented, but that to have any accuracy, they have to join the fight, even if it's at 500 miles per hour and a 70 degree dive angle.

They're paying for their increased effectiveness in the coin of increased risk.

[DarkHawk]

Interesting Thread.

Yes the new bombing method is had to learn, and still doing so.
************************************************** to try out bombing and feel good about what they have done, not say  on vox 'what a waste of time!,my bombs just hit the runway' etc.
**************************************************
Would love to see crater damage effect a runway and planes taking off. Just think, bomb damage to a runways would take say 20 minutes for repair. Since someone would have to fill in the holes.
One could even provide a maint hanger with bulldozers so you could repair a runway faster.

I have flown some in Fighter Aces 3, where they have damage to runways, if you hit a crater the plane is destroyed.  

Just think big formation of bomber at 20k drop on an air field followed by Jabo with escort. If runways destroyed by buffs rest is easy

DarkHawk

[runny]

Originally posted by DarkHawk
If runways destroyed by buffs rest is easy

Which is the whole point of the game, no?