Iraq (why should we attack?)

[SC-Sp00k]

Middle East Oil

http://www.zmag.org/content/TerrorWar/siuhin_oil-war.cfm

The Macedonian point of view

http://news1.beograd.com/english/articles_and_opinion/djurdjevic/090601_Macedonia_Another_Farcical_American_Oil_War.html

The Sudan
http://www.christian-aid.org.uk/indepth/0103suda/sudanoil.htm

The War on Terrorism

http://www.ucan.org/law_policy/energydocs/oilwaredit.htm

Columbia

http://www.globalizaction.org/ColombiaOil.htm

American Interests?  Click on the War on Oil link in the Downloads section. (requires Adobe)

http://www.war-times.org/

I could go on..All the way back to Rudyard Kipling and the first Afghan War if you desire. But so can you. Its all documented, Fact AND fiction somewhere on the net.

[-tronski-]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
"Millions of people have died for Oil and im betting Millions of people will again."



Millions? Who killed these millions, which war? Did you hear this on a college campus?

 The Japanese went to war over oil, that caused the odd causualty I heard...Mind you I learn't that at High School.

 Tronsky

[majic]

"majic i suggest you calm down. And yes he did have a point, and it is painfully obvious. (made more obvious by your kneejerk defensive response. )

you pose a vague and and obscure question, then ask for peoples opinions and thoughts, then cry when they dont match your own feelings.

Then you go so far to arbitrarily interpret acronyms...RW? damn that could mean anything. I myself think "ringworm" would be good.

I believe whole hearted in KG45's last paragraph and see the proof and truth in what he says in your own words. "


Sorry if my earlier response sounded harsh.  That was not the intention.  I am interested in arguments for or against going into Iraq.  What kg45 posted contained no argument conerning that and instead likened our government to NAZI's.  Perhaps what he said wuld have been valid if he could have brought up an argument saying we (the people) were in fact in no danger from Iraq.  Fair 'nuff?

[majic]

"The Japanese went to war over oil, that caused the odd causualty I heard...Mind you I learn't that at High School. "


I disagree.  Japan went to war to take a step up on the world stage.  (Remember the Co-Prosperity Sphere?)  Oil was just one of the things they needed to accomplish this.  Territory and subjugated populations were some others.  (Oil was just one of the things the Germans needed to complete their goals too.)  

The Gulf War probably had more to do with oil than any other war.  Iraq wanted Kuwait's oil (simple version).  We defended Kuwait because they were important to our oil interests.  Saudi Arabia cooperated to protect their own oil.

[majic]

Spook:  Doesn't it bother you that most all of those articles contain no documentation of sources?  They are scary if true, but it's hard to take them at face value.  I do, however, agree with one point made in the 4th link.  We do need to hunt down a new energy source and lose our dependance on oil.  (Your second link was a dead link- btw.)

[Dowding]

Why? Because nobody else has the will or means to do it. Their only solution is to kiss his arse and squeak about our actions in public while behind the camera impatiently waiting for us to clean up the mess AGAIN.

Awwww. Poor old little US of A. Keeps its nose clean but still gets given the crappy jobs.

roadkill. Some information for you:

The US and its Allies supported and propped up Saddam's regime for decades and helped him fight a war against Iran. This included turning a blind eye to his dirty internal dealings, his elimnation of political opponents and his oppression of dissident groups. They gave money, military training etc. Britain nearly sold him a gun capable of launching projectiles over hundreds of miles. He was the West's pet in the middle East.

With the end of the cold war, he became expendable to the point of becoming a liability. His sabre rattling and threats against neighbours threatened oil supplies and hence, when he invaded Kuwait conflict was inevitable.

So don't pretend this is not the US's problem simply because the problem originates outside of US borders. You created the situation as much as anyone else, and arguably have more responsibility for Saddam's continued rule than any other Western democracy.

[Thrawn]

So Dowding, you're saying you support the terrorists then?

Sorry...just wanted to be the first.

[Lance]

I don't know if millions died in the Pacific War, but oil was the driving factor on the Japanese side.  Check the following excerpt from "Midway-- The Battle That Doomed Japan" by Mitsuo Fuchida and Masatake Okumiya that describes the reasoning behind the Japanese decision to go to war.  

Ever since Japan, dazzled by German victories in Europe, had concluded the military alliance with the Axis, the United States, Great Britain, and the Netherlands had applied increasing economic pressure against her.  When Japanese troops moved into southern Indochina in July 1941, the three powers struck back with their most damaging blow to date -- a concerted embargo on oil exports to Japan.

The cutting off of oil supplies hit the navy at its most vulnerable spot.  Its reserve of 6,450,000 tons diminished daily, and, even with the strictest economy, would be exhausted in three or four years at the most.  Since without oil the Japanese fighting services would become powerless, Japan would be reduced to a situation in which she would have to bow to any and all demands by the Anglo-American camp.

It had been hoped, when Japanese-American negotiations were begun in the spring of 1941, that a peaceful solution might be found.  But as the talks dragged on with no apparent hope of achieving a mutually acceptable agreement, the war faction pointed to the disastrous effects of the oil embargo and declared that Japan must either take up arms before it was too late or else reconcile herself to eventual complete capitualiation.

[sling322]

Originally posted by majic
Iraq (why should we attack?)

Why not?

[majic]

Lance:  their primary reason for striking the U.S. and Britain was because our oil embargo, but keep in mind they were already at war in China at that point.  The goal of that conflict was to become the preiminent power in that region, oil was something they needed to do that, but not the end goal.  (they also needed many other raw materials.)

[Cobra]

Dowding,
What was that little stroll called the Falklands all about?

Yeah....we all do it, don't we.

For the record, I don't think we should dodge the responsibility we had of propping him up in the past.  I also think our allies should too.  Then of course we all would have to deal with him together to get rid of him too....That would mean acting like, well....Allies.  Much as we did in '91, even then it was difficult.

Of course it wouldn't be a pot-shot at the US thread without Thrawn


Cobra

[Lance]

Oh, I agree, Majic.  There is no doubt that you can boil that need for oil down to the more basic motivation of wanting to be the dominant power in the region -- but the implication above from others was that oil was not a major factor in a governments decision to go to war, when clearly it was in Japan's case.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Dowding
...So don't pretend this is not the US's problem simply because the problem originates outside of US borders. You created the situation as much as anyone else, and arguably have more responsibility for Saddam's continued rule than any other Western democracy.

So it's OK with you then if we go clean up this problem then?

>

[sidthekid]

old joke about Saddam thought some may use it later.


  Saddam is sitting at table having a coffe reading the US today newspaper. Headlines read " Saddam Hussin Biggest prettythanghole in world". He turns to his wife and says Honey do you think i'm biggest ahole in world. Well she knows if she answers he will kill her. so she says why don't you ask your magic mirror on the wall in your bedroom. so he goes in bedroom and says mirror on the wall am i the biggest prettythanghole of all? His wife can't hear the answer but he comes out with a dumbfounded look on his face and turns to her and asked" who in the %!#^!^ is IEN"

[Dowding (Work)]

Thrawn -  

Do what, Cobra? Protect our own territory, populated by our own citizens, containing our resources? I believe that was what the Falklands War was mostly about.

It's nothing like Iraq/Kuwait - or do you claim sovereignty over those regions?

If you don't mind me saying, Your response is of the typical, blindly defensive "How dare you criticise US foreign policy" ilk. Frankly, I'll criticise all I like - and get this - I'll even criticise my own government! Now there's a thing!

Toad - you won't do it alone. You can't do it alone.

I want Saddam gone as much as the next man. But where are the plans to build a nation afterwards? Who's going to ensure the political vacuum is filled by a democratic system?

Frankly, the US has had as much success in nation building as my old mum.