please unperk spitxiv for a while

[Tumor]

Perk them all!

[Karnak]

J_A_B,

No, that isn't it at all.

The fact is that it has a perk icon, even when it is free in the CT, and that summons people to kill it.  It isn't rational, but it is what happens.  The icon singles these aircraft out as different and special.  Who doesn't want to kill special things.  I know that when I see a rare aircraft, say, an F4F or a Hurri, I'm much more inclined to kill it so that I can have one of them on my score card.  Drawing fire like this actually prevents me from bringing the aircraft's full potential to bear on my opponent.


As to not wanting to treat every Spitfire as a Spit XIV, well, boo bleeping hoo.

I cannot find any sympathy in me for that position.

I mostly fly an aircraft that is dead if it meets a semi competent pilot in a P-51D (most common fighter), La-7 (4th most common fighter), Typhoon (5th most common fighter), Fw190D-9 (7th most common fighter), P-38L (8th most common fighter), Bf109G-10 (10th most common fighter), P-51B, F4U-1, F4U-1D, La-5FN, Yak-9U, Bf109G-2, Bf109G-6, Fw190A-5 or Fw190A-8.  If I don't hold the position advantage at the sart I lose against any pilot with any clue as to what they are doing in all of those.  Because of how common those are I have to treat every dot (yes dot) as automatic death if it is above me.

How many of those are aircraft that I'd have to deal with in my prefered 1943 environment? Bf109G-2, Bf109G-6, Fw190A-5.  All among the most manageable of the lot.

So your complaining that you'd have to actually treat the Spitfires you fought with respect as they might actually be contemporaries of your P-51D (although 19 times out of 20 they would not be) fails to move me in any way.

Why do you have any more of a right with your $15 to change how I play than I do to change how you play with my $15?  You choose to use a fighter that is, frankly, just as good as the Spitfire Mk XIV or F4U-4, yet you don't suffer the penalties that pilots of those aircraft do.  You aren't forced to simultaneously fight all enemy fighters in icon range in a fighter that isn't fast enough to run from its most common adversaries.

[Rebel]

The real issue here is the tag.


I really think all planes should have "base" tags.  

Just make the paint schemes a bit different.  

If I dive on a spit in my Jug, and find out that it's a Spit XIV halfway into it, I'd probly take my one shot that I could get and continue the dive, comfortable in the fact that I can still get away.  

However, if I see a Spit XIV tag from 5 miles away, I will avoid it at all costs, or stack the deck so supremely in my favor (through alititude and speed management, or call a buncha friends) to make it happen.

Now there are two extremes people are arguing over.  Either have it all tagged, or have it all base tagged.  I'm going to take my suggestion a little bit further:

How about this-  Base tags stay in effect until, say, D1.0.  After that, the perk flag goes up, and it STAYS up to *me*.  Anyone else who gets within D1.0 of the plane could see it as well.  

What do y'all think of that?

(edited to remove shpellun errs and a moot point.  Have a nice day )

[J_A_B]

"You choose to use a fighter that is, frankly, just as good as the Spitfire Mk XIV or F4U-4"

In WW2, yes.  In the AH MA?  Not by a long shot.  And you know it.  There IS more to fighting than sea-level speed.   More to running too, than just pointing the nose down and going for the deck.

Then you mention the frustration of flying a plane, that by your own admission, would be dogmeat even its own time period.  I really don't see how that is relevant to the discussion and really the entire paragraph made little sense.  Even if you ARE flying a deathtrap, you still know what you're up against.

Again, I ask...what would be wrong with a new MA with nothing but jets perked, or a section of the current MA with such a "free area"?

"The icon singles these aircraft out as different and special. Who doesn't want to kill special things. "

Want to know something??  They're singling you out because you're the biggest threat!    All you want to do is deprive your opponents of basic SA (the threat assessment part).  

I guess I have the opposite viewpoint as you do...I wish every single airplane had a unique ICON tag.

J_A_B

[Zaphod]

Well, here's my two cents on this.........(cringing already)

I would agree that the current system regarding tagging perk planes is probably not perfect.  However I don't see removing them.  I have seen the arguement that we should all just use the markings on the planes to ID the planes.  That would be great if we could see as well on our computer screens as we can in real life with regard to markings, but we can't so that seems a bit impractical.  Add to that the disparity of sytems with regard to image quality and especially monitor size.  It seems a bit unfair to penalize somebody who can't or won't put out the cash for a spanking new 21" or bigger monitor.  I know I can't justify the added cost for that purpose.  There is also the issue of planning the fight.  I really need to know what kind of plane I'm dealing with way before I'm within 500 yards of him (the distance at which I can discern markings well enough to tell the version of the plane).  I'm not automatically dead if a particular plane shows up high to me, but I do need to do a little planning ahead of time to get set up to kill or evade it.  Perked rides generally need to have a significantly different plan than unperked rides of the same model.

As far as the problem with folks chasing the perk planes.......what do you expect?  I mean if they could come up with some other system that allowed one to ID a planetype other than tagging it then you will still be ID'd and singled out.  Your already at an advantage by flying a perk plane, why would you feel the need to be at a bigger advantage by not allowing others to see that your in a perk plane until it's too late?  It seems to me that being targeted to a certain extent is just part of flying a perked ride.  I mean it's human nature to attempt to "kill" the big bad perked ride.  I like to do it.  No I'm generally not part of the mindless train chasing the lone perked ride because I like landing my kills.  However given a choice between attacking a perked ride or an unperked ride I will generally go after the perked ride.  I like the challenge.  I don't think that perked rides are meant to be unassailable.  Nor will they turn a mediocre pilot into the king of all sim pilots.  I just think that they have an advantage (or advantages) over other planes that are significant enough to limit the numbers of those planes in order to maintain balanced gameplay.  Besides on the most common advantages of the perked rides is speed.  In fact, I can't think of a high priced perked ride that doesn't hold a signifcant speed advantage over most planes at certain altitudes.  Can a higher plane catch you?  Sure they can, so look around for the high dots and bug out if you need to.  That added stress is part of the fun for me.

Personally I don't think that there is a usage problem.  I see plenty of Spit14s in the arena, along with the other perked rides. No the skies are not filled with perked rides, but that's kinda the point of the perk system. In fact I would guess that the reason the Spit14 isn't more common is the fact that it doesnt turn like most folks expected it too.  It seems to be more of a BNZ ride than a turner and used in that capacity it's nasty and very survivable.  Sure the Spit14 gets a lot of attention, but so do other Spits.  Think about what would happen if they introduced (hypothetical here to make a point) a perked Nik.  I mean there are several players who target Niks and Spits just because they have some "thing" against Niks and Spits.  Why wouldn't a PERKED spit get LOTS of attention.  Besides, alot of Spit flyers seem to consider their planes disposable.  That's fine if that's what you want to do, but if you run out and fly a Spit14 like that then don't expect the lack of a tag to keep you alive. Like any other plane you have to fly using the advantages that the plane your in offers in relation to the opposing plane.  

Anyway I think the current system is as good as it gets for now.  I feel we need the tags simply because there is no other way to ID planes out there.  I also think that its only fair that if your gonna fly a perked plane that the opposing flyer at least know of your advantage.  

The cost of the planes.....well ya got me on that one.  They seem to adjust the cost according to usage to a certain extent.  As long as that continues then it's fine by me.

Sorry for the length of the message.  Hopefully I didn't offend anyone too much, this wasn't intended to be a flame...just an opinion.

Zaphod

[Karnak]

J_A_B,

Try flying the Spit XIV for a tour (or at least for a few  days).  I've flown the Spit XIV and I've flown the P-51D in AH.  The P-51D is every bit as good.  Its different, but just as good.

Also, where did I say my ride would be dogmeat in its proper enviroment?  I said that there were three aircraft that would defeat it if flown at all properly, but  I also said those three were the most managable.  P-51Ds, F4Us, Typhoons and La-7s are aircraft it would never have fought and in AH are the biggest threats.  Spitfires and N1K2s are minor annoyances in comparison.

Zaphod,

I think you mistook the point of an awful lot of this.  Also, where is it that you see perk planes.  The only perk planes I saw last Tour were the perk planes I was sitting in.


Screw it.  It doesn't matter.  I'm burnt out over this and the bomber subject.  I just don't care anymore.  Everything is perfect.

[Voss]

According to your score, Karnak, you don't fly enough period.

Tonight I landed an 8 kill sortie in the Spit 14, and before that managed a 5 kill sortie, before a spray-and-pray P-38 smoked my engine. Rude was kind enough to tie up the VERY desperate Spit after me while I ditched/augered. My K/D is currently 8:1 in the 14, which is a little lower then I try to get in the P51D (for instance), but higher then I usually achieve (average about 7.9:1 in Pony these last few camps). Actually, if not for a midair on debris it would be 12:1. The Spit 14 IS uber, in that it can wade into a heavy con area and still get out, which I don't even try in the pony.

However, all that aside, I do not think that the game should be modified to suit a few guys that seldom fly and want to fly a 'favorite' ride. There are guys in here that could make that Spit 14 deliver some awesome streaks, and having it cost a few perks keeps all that in balance. Sure, we have a few 'experten' that would like to see the icon removed, and probably for the same reason some of us hide panzers behind ridges and shell other GV's and spawning A/C, and it goes with the recent changes in Victory announcements. Being anonymous/generic has its advantages, but why not go a step further and argue for the removal of ALL icons? Well, guess who would have the advantage then? Answer: the guys that have awesome systems and know how to use these planes anyway.

As an aside, I watched six guys auger tonight (no kill awarded to me) including two P-38's and an Me-262. Why? They wanted that Spit 14 really, really bad!

[Karnak]

Voss,

Oh, I agree with you that the Spitfire XIV must be perked.  It would ruin the MA otherwise.

I just strongly believe that for the vast majority of players, who like me are aren't terribly good and haven't got gobs of time to play, the perk icons make the prop perks completely frusterating and pointless.

I honestly find it easier to get a decent (for me) K/D with the Mosquito than I do with the Spit XIV.  I don't think I'm at all alone in this.

The perk icons keep the uber planes in the hands of the few great sticks in the game, and that is too bad as there are many regular Joes who would love a shot at playing with them.

[lazs2]

The fewer perk planes I see in the current arena the better and that includes the fourteen.   I think that the icons should also be bright pink for perk rides so that they are eisier to see.

and creamo..  I don't think a hurri II survives real well in the arena.   I don't think you get many perks for getting killed and... why should someone get rewarded for sneaking up on an afk player no matter how long it took to find said afk player?
lazs

[Vermillion]

So your complaining that you'd have to actually treat the Spitfires you fought with respect as they might actually be contemporaries of your P-51D (although 19 times out of 20 they would not be) fails to move me in any way.

*referee's whistle blows and he throws out the yellow flag*

BBS Foul, Illegal & Illogical Interpretation of History
15 yards, a case of beer to the FDB Con Beer fund,  and restate the post

Sorry, but the Spitfire contemporary of the P-51D is as I have stated many times before was the Spitfire IX, the Spit XIV was a minor sideshow compared to the IX usage in the late stages of the war.  Yes we have a "hybrid" model spit, but its definitely a  1944 model or later.

Karnak, nothing personal but I have to agree with Voss on this one.  After the last Spit XIV thread, I took it up for a couple of sorties (2) and did quite well in it.  4 kills (one doesn't show up in the score as I disco'd about 30 seconds later) and 3 assists, without dying.  During the sortie I flew into a high threat area, and was jumped by a mixture of enemies plane types with superior E something like 7 times.  And each time I was able to counter and either get a kill or escape.  Its a real beast of a plane.  True it takes a different flying style too succeed in, not your "typical" type of Spit, but definitely a killer.

[Masherbrum]

Perk planes aren't that special anyways, why the big hoopla?!   I agree 100% with Zaphod.   I chew up all of the Hogs and the two perked ones I shoot down when I come across them.  

Karaya2

[Creamo]

Because Laz, I think you get a lot of perk points (relative) for killing something in a hurricane, you lose NONE getting killed 3 times in between those kills while desperately defending a vulched field.  (I think anyways. Never did read a strat guide on the pot that was web based. That’s where I do my research on such important issues, AH included.) Seems right though. Thought that's what I said.

Anyway, I’m confused at your last point, I’ll still guess what your getting at.

  I don’t think I should get more points for killing people afk, I should get 10 solid points, landed or not, for every whine I have received over the years. You can’t usually get the whine if they are taking a growler or re-freshening their spring water. It’s all timing though I guess. I’d have more than 20 perks if that were the case.

So, just what were you getting at actually?

I’d hate to see a MA full of perk planes too, but I rarely EVER see them, and only can fly the F4C or a occasional Ta152 myself. Because of that, I think something is skewed in the perk system, hense my initial reply.

 Unless your eluding to, you can build tons of points if you’re a early war BnZ plane driving type of player?

OK, as I will agree with you, an MA area where early war planes can carry on a plane/era specific “fair” fight of sorts would be a nice addition, I don’t subscribe to the notion using a Dora to it’s strengths, is somehow a cliché, skill less form of playing in the MA, and the early war TnB crowd is a roughneck rogue bunch of squeak beating, bloodshot eyed acm aces. Lol, come on.









------

[Zaphod]

Originally posted by Karnak
J_A_B,


Zaphod,

I think you mistook the point of an awful lot of this.  Also, where is it that you see perk planes.  The only perk planes I saw last Tour were the perk planes I was sitting in.


Screw it.  It doesn't matter.  I'm burnt out over this and the bomber subject.  I just don't care anymore.  Everything is perfect.

Actually I see them quite regularly, especially the Temp. and Spit14.  The 262 and 152 are only slightly less seen.  Again, I'm not saying that I see large masses of them or even one of them every flight.  I do see one or more of them 1 out of every 3 flights on average.  However I think that the relatively low numbers of perk rides flying as compared to non-perked rides is the whole point of perking those planes.

By the way, it is not only merely possible that I mistook the point but actually highly likely

Zaphod the Clueless

[hazed-]

I can understand the frustration they feel personally.

if your favourite aircraft happens to be the spitfire there would be a strong desire to fly the Spitfire.XIV, even though this aircraft was in service at the same time as the P51Dand the FW190D9 .we have had the P51d and 190d9 non perked since their introduction.So if perking planes is to be set by, among other things, usage or rather over-usage,why has the spit14 been kept perked? Im surprised its still so expensive.Ive only seen 1 or 2 in at least 2 tours.

The way i see it we have one of the best fighters of the war for free if you favour the Luftwaffe or the USAAF but if you favour raf planes you had better be damn good at staying alive because your best planes are 60 perks each and you cant keep losing them for too long even though they saw as much action as any other aircraft in AH of the same period.

Its why  fly LW and never try the spit14 anymore

[Seagoon]

One of the reasons for the perk system we seem to be missing is the desire to keep the late war fighters rare. I've read HT saying that the perk point system is also designed to try to keep a mid-war atmosphere to the game, otherwise there would be little or no reason to perk the TA152 at all [anyone seriously want to argue its a better ride than the LA7???]

Still, I say change the cammo on he SPIT XIV to some distinctive variant (I believe there was an all light blue model for instance) and then remove the tag. I'll freely admit it, whenever I see a Spit14 icon its like a red flag to a bull. It's far better to let a guy know what kind of plane he's fighting when he can see it [fwiw I'd love to see the tags only identify the country - maybe we can get an MA2 with no tags some day?]

- Seagoon