Author Topic: Now that we've got an HA, GERMANS NEED A HEAVY BOMBER!!!!  (Read 1454 times)

Offline JG_Sunbird

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Now that we've got an HA, GERMANS NEED A HEAVY BOMBER!!!!
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2001, 08:50:00 PM »
GRÜNHERZ u are wrong.  Despite  they build 1000 of them, it never went beyound Comando-raid or Special Operation toejam. The number only tells how many of them where build and not that 7/10 of them droped out of the skys due mechanical and the famous " twin-engineproblem"....

Offline Kieran

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Now that we've got an HA, GERMANS NEED A HEAVY BOMBER!!!!
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2001, 09:28:00 PM »
Just an aside-

I can't find a single reference to the 177 ever being used in numbers larger than 35 or so at a time, and in those cases many of them returned enroute for one reason or another. Not that it matters much, that isn't the real issue.

The real issue is clear to me; balance. There are those that think the game is unbalanced due to the Allies advantage in heavy bombers (which we all know they did indeed possess). This neglects the technological edge possessed in the LW fighters represented in AH (which we all also know is historical). The analogy is simple- you have the classic boxer/brawler matchup.

Then one must also consider the neglect of the other barely (or not at all) represented countries of AH. There are many more viable Axis aircraft out there that are not German, a fact seemingly overlooked. What balance do we talk of now? Country representation or gameplay attributes?

Do we set out 10 categories associated with AH then try to balance both Axis and Allies in every category? Is that possible? Is it desirable? It isn't historical, that is for sure.

What we wind up with is people arguing for ahistorical additions based on historical reasons- and that goes for both sides. The latest aircraft's contribution to the war effort can be summed up as practically nothing. The same could be said of several other planes.

Next we move on to the concept of AH giving something not given before. While the style of play is familiar, the plane list isn't. So far this has been the place to fly some exotic birds seldom if ever modeled. This is a pull for me personally, else this would be just another AW/FA/WB, with nothing to distinguish it from the others.

If you don't get it by now, we clearly could argue for or against any plane anyone ever considers for inclusion. What's the point? More is better usually, why not take more?

My personal preference would be to move off the American/German aircraft for a while and get some other countries fleshed out. It doesn't matter ultimately because about any plane included will get flown.

I do have to laugh at one thing though (and please forgive me, LW). I for the life of me cannot believe that parties that lobby against the Hurri IIc could in the next breath lobby for the 177. There is no historic, gameplay, or side-balancing argument for that type of silliness.

[ 08-11-2001: Message edited by: Kieran ]

Offline DingHao2

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Now that we've got an HA, GERMANS NEED A HEAVY BOMBER!!!!
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2001, 07:52:00 AM »
First, i don't lobby against the Hurricane.  But i do want to see the contenders in the arena facing each other on eaqual terms.

Offline Dowding

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Now that we've got an HA, GERMANS NEED A HEAVY BOMBER!!!!
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2001, 08:06:00 AM »
I agree Kieren. Attempting to balance the Axis versus Allied planesets is not historical, especially in the area of strategic bombing capacity.

Personally, I'd prefer to see a Japanese or Russian bomber of ANY type before another Luftwaffe or Allied one.
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Offline DingHao2

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« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2001, 09:06:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding:
Attempting to balance the Axis versus Allied planesets is not historical, especially in the area of strategic bombing capacity.

The Germans had strategic bombers eaqual or better than the Allies.  But not enough of them were produced.  But enough of them were produced to put them in AH.

Offline Cobra

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« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2001, 09:13:00 AM »
Ok Ding...no problem, put them in, and then perk them at 1000 points to represent how often you would see them in the skies.

Problem solved.  The Germermans get their heavy bomber and the perk points will keep limit it's use to what was available.  

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Offline Nashwan

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Now that we've got an HA, GERMANS NEED A HEAVY BOMBER!!!!
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2001, 09:36:00 AM »
Whilst you're trying to balance the planesets, how about an unperked RAF fighter from 1943 or 44. Flying the same 1942 plane in 1944 has nothing whatsoever to do with accuracy or balance.

Offline Westy MOL

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Now that we've got an HA, GERMANS NEED A HEAVY BOMBER!!!!
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2001, 10:39:00 AM »
"The Germans had strategic bombers equal or better than the Allies."

 Baloney. They (nor the other Axis powers) anything like the Lancaster, B-24, B-29 or the B-36 in development or in production.

 A close shot could have been the ME-263 but it never seriously went anywhere.

 

 Medium bombers the Axis were fine. The A-26 Invader being the king of the hill however.

  Westy

Offline Staga

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Now that we've got an HA, GERMANS NEED A HEAVY BOMBER!!!!
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2001, 11:07:00 AM »
Dowding its kinda "confirmed" that Tupolev Tu-2 will be in game and as far as I can see its Best Russian WW2 bomber ever made (I hope HTC gives it a "OverLoad" option too).

Also best (imo) U.S made bomber is in game, B-17G with stunning firepower.
Brits have Lanc with .50cal tail guns and huge payload, again best british "Heavy" AFAIK.

So is there any good reason why we shouldn't have He-177 in AH?
Why should LW have only Ju-88 from 1940 as their only non-perked bomber ?

Offline Dowding

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Now that we've got an HA, GERMANS NEED A HEAVY BOMBER!!!!
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2001, 11:49:00 AM »
Ding - to say the LW had anything even remotely approaching the quality of aircraft the Allies had in the role of heavy bomber is not supported by the facts. What they had were relatively few pathetically unreliable types, which only on paper are of equal ability.

Staga - The way I've always seen the perk system was a mechanism to introduce rare aircraft and/or aircraft that would unbalance the MA if their use was unlimited.

The Ju-88, Lancaster, B-17 and Tu-2 were produced in very large numbers, saw extensive action in whatever theatre they were posted to and were significant parts of the respective airforces they served with. For these reasons they are unperked. You could apply the same reasoning to any airforce.

Now, if you wanted to introduce the B-29, that would be a good candidate for a perk bomber plane considering its huge payload, its superb defensive armament etc and its fairly late entrance into combat.

The He-177 saw very little combat compared to the LW medium bombers and it was also produced in far less numbers for a bomber. Consequently, if it was modelled here, I'd hope it was perked. I don't know what value, less than the Arado I'd assume.
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Offline Staga

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Now that we've got an HA, GERMANS NEED A HEAVY BOMBER!!!!
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2001, 12:19:00 PM »
Quote
The way I've always seen the perk system was a mechanism to introduce rare aircraft and/or aircraft that would unbalance the MA if their use was unlimited.

In that case I expect Lanc to be perked. It has a huge payload and if its free for everyone to use all fields would be smoking holes in ground. Yesterday I wrecked all fighterhangars from a base with a Lanc.

Hey Lanc isn't perked and most of fields in Arena are still operative ?


F4U-1C: about 200 made.
He-177A5: 826 made.

Looks like He-177's price would be about 2 points and I could live with it  :)

Offline Karnak

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Now that we've got an HA, GERMANS NEED A HEAVY BOMBER!!!!
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2001, 12:52:00 PM »
I don't see any reason whatsoever to Perk the He177A-5 in the MA.

In the CT, however, it should probably have a small perk price attached to it in order to enforce its rarity.
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Offline Kieran

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Now that we've got an HA, GERMANS NEED A HEAVY BOMBER!!!!
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2001, 01:12:00 PM »
Okay, trying again.

If you want the He177 just say, "I want the He177." Trying to prove its historical significance is a waste of time. We can argue the reasons all day long why it failed, but the fact is it failed. An AH 177 would have none of the disastrous historical problems, so what you wind up with is a plane with all the strengths but none of the weaknesses- like many other planes we have.

You must admit though the argument for adding anything German or American at the moment is pretty weak.

On the German side you have the only two jets, one of the finest, high performing piston-engined fighters, one of the most versatile medium bombers of the war, the only tank of the game, a murderous anti-aircraft/assault weapon (with how many actually manufactured and deployed?), and various models of the two frontline fighters. Pity poor Germany.

On the American side you have undoubtedly two of the finest bombers of the war and representatives and variants of 5 frontline fighters, a torpedo bomber, halftrack, LVT's, and carrier task forces.

Italy has two fighters, only one competitive.

Japan has three fighters, bad-medium-good.

Russia has three fighters and two ground attack planes.

Britain has one of the best bombers, a perk fighter, a ground attack plane, and variants of the Spitfire.

It's obvious where need is, now isn't it? Are we still talking "fair?" Talk to the Italians and the Japanese about their planes that could be included, planes that served in large numbers and made a significant contribution to the war. Talk to the Russians about the massive numbers of units produced and deployed.

See, you know all this already. I do think we sometimes get so wrapped up in what we want that we forget how much better we have it than the other guy.

Offline Toad

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Now that we've got an HA, GERMANS NEED A HEAVY BOMBER!!!!
« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2001, 01:14:00 PM »
Well said, Kieran.
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Offline Staga

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Now that we've got an HA, GERMANS NEED A HEAVY BOMBER!!!!
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2001, 01:42:00 PM »
I don't have anything against adding T-34, Spit XIV, Mosquito, G4M, Sherman, Ki-84 etc to the game.

I don't have a urge to type in topics where people are lobbying these.

What I found wierd is there's lots of people who are trying to convict in every topics concerning He-177 that it doesn't belong to the AH's planeset.

This is not WW2, This is a game played with planes from WW2.

Think about it next time you want to type in topics like this one. Better yet start your own topic why He-177 shouldn't be in game.