Author Topic: Please fix the Spitfire Mk IX (Read 1339 times)

Urchin · « **Reply #15 on:** August 18, 2002, 06:38:57 PM »

The only P-51 varient that I could see dropping the P-51D's usage off any would be the original P-51, with 4x20mm. And the 4 Hispanos would be the only reason any of them would switch.

Your comparison doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me to be honest, with you saying that all of the Spitfire 'varients' get more use than both of the P-51 varients. Well, of course they get more use, there are more of them to pick. The Spit IX and the P-51D are about the same, usage wise. The Spit V is vastly more popular than the P-51B, and the Seafire doesn't really have a comparable P-51 type. The Spit I and Spit XIV see negligble use.

The reason that the Spit V enjoys such popularity is that it is indeed different than the Spit IX. It is slower, but it turns better. The P-51B is unpopular because it doesn't do anything better than the P-51D does. I think if the P-51B did something better than the P-51D, you'd see P-51B use increase and P-51D use decrease.

The P-51H would be perked heavily, if it were ever introduced, and it would not impact P-51 use hardly at all.

Oh, and about the 'trend' thing- the Spit IX's usage didn't go down significantly. The LA-7s did, in comparison to the other "Big 5". The people that fly the La-7 decided that the P-51D offered more advantages on the "Pizza Map" than the La-7 did, thus the numbers increase.

Karnak · « **Reply #16 on:** August 18, 2002, 06:40:44 PM »

The Spit XIV gets what? 500? 750? sorties a month. That is compared to how many thousands of sorties per month that the Spitfire Mk IX gets? No, there was no noticable decline in Spitfire Mk IX usage when the Spitfire Mk XIV was added. That is what I mean by virtually no effect, and that's even assuming the players that flew the Spit XIV would have flown the Spit IX if the XIV weren't there.

No, the P-51D's usage will not be affected by more than 5% total by adding every other P-51.

I am also well aware of usage trends. The Spitfire Mk IX had been top dog since the nerfing of the N1K2, which had in turn been top dog as of the perking of the F4U-1C. The P-51D (a far, far more annoying aircraft to me) was top dog last month. How long can it hold it? I do not know, but we'll see.

I'm not angry here, just a friendly debate. Perhapse I shouldn't have used the "BS" though.

Pongo · « **Reply #17 on:** August 18, 2002, 07:16:03 PM »

Put in a spit xvi with bubble canopy and merlin 266.
give it the Spitxvi icon to confuse americans as to what type it is..would lighten the load on the spit xiv... give it a perk cost of 8 or so. take the rockets and 50s away from our 1942 spit and give it normal carbs and cloth control surfaces...

Puke · « **Reply #18 on:** August 18, 2002, 07:24:34 PM »

Seems like we differ on this and neither understands the other's point of view. Anyway, it's been a fun convo and is letting me procrastinate from the work I brought home to do this weekend. I really do NOT want to work.

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The Spit XIV gets what? 500? 750? sorties a month. That is compared to how many thousands of sorties per month that the Spitfire Mk IX gets?

It may have been a small impact, but it had an impact. It's a bad example because it's perked. Add another late-war variant Spit that wouldn't be perked and offers something above and beyond the other in a particular situation (but not in all situations or parameters) and you'll see an impact to a greater degree. (In certain situtions, one Spitfire is a better choice over another.) Similarly, the P-51H is a bad example and the P51 may be a case where there isn't a variant added that in fact takes away from useage. They just weren't around the number of years like the Spitfire and do not have near the number of variants. Yes, the P51H would be perked. Perks are a monkey-wrench in everything anyway. F4U-4 doesn't have a huge impact just as the Spit14 doesn't but those are issues outside of this convo. Unperk them and you'll see a difference. But for now, perks are a barrier to useage and we have to be careful when dealing with them in this discussion.

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The P-51B is unpopular because it doesn't do anything better than the P-51D does. I think if the P-51B did something better than the P-51D, you'd see P-51B use increase and P-51D use decrease.

Urchin touches upon something which interestingly, I think he supports my position without seeing it. If a variant really doesn't offer anything better to the main type, there will be no diminished use from the original or superior version. But since the SpitV and Seafire do offer viable variants to the Spit9 in certain situations, those three will compete against each other for useage. I still contend that a player typically decides he'll fly a Spitfire first and the variant of Spitfire secondly. Given just one choice (or one choice and an offers-nothing-superior-for-the-situation choice), the useage would be much higher on that original type.

I just personally do not like to have variants of a basica plane-type to compete against each other when you talk useage in the arena. Especially when you compare it to a type that really has only one plane type to choose from (since it seems the P51B really isn't an alternative to the P51D and is probably mostly usefull to those who prefer the color green or for scenarios.)

I do apologize for taking this thread in a different direction. I didn't think my thinking would generate this kind of response. Karnak, I am with you and would prefer to see a proper Spitfire variant modeled. But I still disagree with how you compare numbers. Should I even bring up that I prefer to count USN as a different "country" to USAF when counting plane types modeled? LOL.

fdiron · « **Reply #19 on:** August 18, 2002, 07:45:20 PM »

I fly the P51B 10x more than the 51D, due to the eny value. The only time I fly the 51D is when its the only option in missions.

Rokkit · « **Reply #20 on:** August 18, 2002, 07:52:15 PM »

The Spit XVI with clipped wings and bubble canopy IS the Mk XI (44)...bring it on!

thrila · « **Reply #21 on:** August 18, 2002, 08:07:00 PM »

Mmmmmmmmmm...... ......SpitXVI. SpitXVI would work, it would defo help stop confusion between the marks F and LF.

Clipped wings, bubble canopy and best of all.... unperked

Karnak · « **Reply #22 on:** August 18, 2002, 08:17:32 PM »

Pongo,

Only Spitfire Mk Is, IIs and very early Vs had cloth control surfaces. The vast majority of Spitfire Mk Vs had metal control surfaces and all Spitfire Mk IXs and beyond had metal control surfaces.

The Spitfire Mk XIV's icon reads "SPIT14". A Spitfire Mk XVI with a "SPIT16" icon would not confuse matters in the least, and it would be far more useless as a perk plane than the Mk XIV is. It'd get gangbanged just as much, and have even less of a prayer of escaping.

Puke,

When I fly a Spitfire I don't say "A Spitfire flight sounds nice right now, which shall I use?" My thought pattern would be more like "A Spitfire Mk V flight sounds nice right now." I know damn well if I'm going to use a Mk I, V, IX or XIV because that totally changes the flight.

A Spitfire Mk I is a completely different animal than a Spitfire Mk IX. How you can consider them the same is beyond me. A Spitfire Mk XIV flight is even further away and then amplified by having a curse icon over it.

Urchin · « **Reply #23 on:** August 18, 2002, 08:33:47 PM »

It is sort of a neat conversation.

The only point I disagree with is the lumping of all Spits into a "spit" category to determine what the most popular plane is. When the F4U-1C was getting 20% of the kills in the arena by itself, it was the F4U-1C that was doing it, not just all F4Us. The F4U-1D saw practically no use until the -1C was perked.

I actually think one of the reasons the Spit V sees as much use as it does is because the Spit IX and N1K2 are so popular. The Spit V out-turns both of them pretty handily. On the other hand, the Spit IX and N1K2 turn more evenly. So, if a guy flying a Spit IX or a N1K2 sees a "Spit" icon, he will be tempted to turn with the other plane. The guy in the "Spit" 5, will kick some butt

.

I think if the Spit IX's popularity declines, the Spit V's will also.

Puke · « **Reply #24 on:** August 18, 2002, 08:50:43 PM »

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I know damn well if I'm going to use a Mk I, V, IX or XIV because that totally changes the flight.

Heh heh. So? I already understand that and that's part of my point.

A Spitfire is a Spitfire is a Spitfire. Add a bulge here or a lump there, it's still a Spitfire. Add a gun here and remove a gun there, it's still a Spitfire. Add some range or make it more maneuverable, it's still a Spitfire. Clip the wing or add some fuzzy dice to the rearview mirrors and it's still a Spitfire. Add a roman numeral here or there, it's STILL a Spitfire. In fact, barring the 14, they ALL wear the same tag in the arenas (including the Seafire, it wears "Spit!") and so when you are flying around and see all them "Spit" icons, you don't know what is what and so just from that visible standpoint, they are all the same. You compare just the Spit9 to an aircraft that has two variants and from Urchin's talk, really only one viable variant for selection. Unfair comparison. No matter if you think it's minor or major, the choice in viable variants (Sea, I, V, IX) has impact on which one will be used, but people are still flying a "Spitfire." In the real world, the Pony is about as popular as a Spitfire, maybe more so, I'm not surprised the Pony is an oft-used aircraft. But I guess it serves your purpose to say the Spitfire is not the most common aircraft in the arena by splitting hairs and just comparing one variant (Spit9) to an aircraft variant (P51D) that may not really have any valid alternative to its selection and thus the D is really the only choice. Fact is, Spitfire usage (the Spit Icon) overwhelms the other icons in the arena and it's refreshing to actually get to fight a P38 or 109 or F4U.

How does "Spitfire" usage compare to "Mustang" usage?
How does it compare to ALL the 109s?
How does it compare to ALL the 190s?
How does it compare to ALL the F4Us?
How does it compare to ALL the P38s? Wait, ooops. Only 1 P38. We really must do something about that.

Karnak · « **Reply #25 on:** August 18, 2002, 09:05:47 PM »

Puke,

There is no viable alternative to the P-51D. There is no version of the P-51 that HTC can add that will be a viable alternative to the P-51D. Picking a P-51A instead of a P-51D would be like picking a Spitfire Mk I instead of a Spitfire Mk IX. The fact that they are iconed the same is meaningless. The performance and gun package is so different as to make them entirely different aircraft. From a performance stand point the Spitfire Mk IX and N1K2 have far more in common than do the Spitfire Mk IX and Spitfire Mk I. Does that mean I should count N1K2s as Spitfires? Of course not.

Ignoring the version, Spitfires are the most popular aircraft in AH. This is unquestionable, but some icon has to be most common and its better that it is one with many versions than one with a single version. However, ignoring the version is silly and massively distorts things. A fight against a Spitfire Mk IX is quite different than a fight against a Spitfire Mk V. They are individual aircraft and have individual and distictive flight models. They are not the same.

Should the Spitfire Mk I, V and XIV be removed from AH, by no means will all those players switch to Spitfire Mk IXs. There are many Spitfire Mk V fliers that would switch to the Hurricane Mk IIc or A6M5b as those are closer in many ways to the Spitfire Mk V than is the Spitfire Mk IX.

whgates3 · « **Reply #26 on:** August 19, 2002, 12:24:23 AM »

a lot of Spit Is were had metal ailerons put on 'in the field', & i believe the negative G engine cut out was fixed in by the time the Spit V rolled out. The Spit Vcs in Malta were armed w/ 4 x 20mm, and frequently flew with only 2 x 20mm installed, to improve the climb rate. Both would be nice options...

Puke · « **Reply #27 on:** August 19, 2002, 03:06:26 AM »

Karnak,

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There is no viable alternative to the P-51D.

I would expect someone who disdains the Mustang to say such a thing. In fact, my favorite Mustang is the P-51B. P-51D usage is lowered because I prefer to fly the P-51B over the P-51D. In fact, I plan on giving it much more stick time coming up thanks to our little discussion. I've been remiss in flying her for too long.

Add in a P-51A and maybe a cannon armed variant and I would conjecture that the P-51D usage would diminish. But the alternatives to the Mustang do not offer the benefits in varying flight regimes or tactical situations that the Spitfire variants offer. Defending a base, up a V or even a I but the Mustang offers no variant to select from for defending a base. Spitfire fans have a choice and each choice offers a valid benefit in a certain flight regime. I have a friend who flies Aces High and who is a Spitfire fan and if I understand him correctly, he's a fan of the Spitfire V in the game. I'm certain he'd be flying the IX if the V or other variants had never been introduced, and so that is one small example how adding variants can affect the use of another specific variant. And this is why I think the Mustang is a poor comparison to the Spit when discussing numbers because the Mustang really offers no alternative in the arena. Well, it does offer one that basically flies the same though maybe a few MPH's faster but has worse visibility and armament.

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There are many Spitfire Mk V fliers that would switch to the Hurricane Mk IIc or A6M5b as those are closer in many ways to the Spitfire Mk V than is the Spitfire Mk IX.

Ahh, you just proved my point. You admit that only "many" would switch to another variant leaving some number of players who would fly the MkIX. Thus, you are in fact stating the SpitIX numbers would go up if the Spit variants were gone but one.

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From a performance stand point the Spitfire Mk IX and N1K2 have far more in common than do the Spitfire Mk IX and Spitfire Mk I. Does that mean I should count N1K2s as Spitfires?

Now you are getting absurd. I can do that too. Since the P51B flies very little different than the P51D, should we then combine their scores? That would mean the Pony now has the highest fighter-fighter number of kills out of any aircraft in the MA. That would server your purpose. Or how about this...shall we separate the Spitfire IX flights out that fly with the different gun packages?

Basically, the N1K isn't named "Spitfire." It's as simple as that. A Spitfire is a Spitfire is a Spitfire. And they are everywhere.

Seeker · « **Reply #28 on:** August 19, 2002, 03:17:36 AM »

"Please fix the Spitfire Mk IX "

Punt

whgates3 · « **Reply #29 on:** August 19, 2002, 04:09:22 AM »

Puke - as far as i know there never were any cannon armed Mustangs, except possible a Ford Mustang towing a prop to a civil war reenactment. other than that, i think that there aren't as many P-51 vaiants because it was perfected at the D model. compared to that Supermarine $u>< .... MK XXIV my oscar .... get it right the 1st (or 4th) time around!!!

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