Do those suggestions increase fun, realism, or both?

[deSelys]

As every other AH customer, I feel myself authorized to suggest to add or alter some features to the game:

1) Make it worthy to new users to quit using aids like:
            - auto take-off
            - stall (or AoA) limiter
            - auto fuel tank selection (but make it possible to select both wing tanks at the same time...)        
            - combat trim...
I would add a multiplier to the ENY value of a given plane if its pilot uses any of these aids, ie: F4U-1D using auto take-off and combat trim= 25x0.9 (auto take-off)x0.75(combat trim)= 16.875.

Hence, the player would ba able to play and fight as before, but he would get more perks if he stopped to use those aids.

2) Get rid of the auto-level, auto-angle and auto-speed trim settings, and make an extra 'aid-feature' of them (see point 1).
The 2 main benefits of this are:
             - you are kept busy during long flights
             - it is possible to remove trim devices from planes which weren't equipped (ie the 109s had only an elevator trim (a 'flying tail' in this case to be correct)).

I like the 109, but I'm sure it will feel different when I have to keep rudder pressure during whole flight. For those who don't want to bother with this, it is possible to activate the 'aid', but it will decrease the ENY value a bit.

3) Get rid of the 'high temperature safety' on WEP. Most planes weren't equipped with this, meaning that the pilot had to monitor the engine temperatures closely when he broke the throttle wire (like Tempest and P-51). If you use WEP for too long, you'll blow your engine.

Some planes may have been equipped with such a feature (maybe when equipped with an injection like MW50 or GM1) although I don't have sufficient data to back this up. Can somebody help me on this?

4) about the 109 again: the ground handling characteristics of this plane were awful. However, it is a very easy plane to taxi, get off the ground or land here in AH. The F4U for instance, needs much more attention during take-off and landing runs (and rightly so). Would it be possible to adjust the 109 ground handling to be closer to reality? If needed, I can scan and OCR an article by Mark Hanna flying a Bf109G10 (D-FEHD) and another by Capt. Eric Brown giving his experience about a bunch of 109s.

5) I would like to have a simple radiator feature in AH. Maybe 3 positions would be enough:
           - open: gives the best cooling rate (ie after a long period using WEP) but induces an aerodynamic deceleration.
           - auto: adjust to the power setting you're using to keep the engine between safe temperature margins (this would be like now in AH without the feature)
           - closed: gives the best streamiling to your plane, allowing you to get a couple of extra MPH, but also letting the temperatures to rise at all but the lowest power settings. The higher the manifold settings (or use of WEP), the higher the rising.

It would allow us to 'fine tune' our planes in the following cases:

- extensions
- gliding
- cooling the engine after a long WEP run
but also
- taxiing on the ground
- taking off at max weight on CVs
...

As I'm no RL pilot, I may have some misconceptions here so I'll appreciate any comment or suggestion from you flyers on this topic(s).

Thanks for your attention.

[Innominate]

Auto-takeoff isn't much of a help, but rather more of a time saver.  It's also good for getting everyone into the air together during missions.  Taking off with 5fps can be interesting

Stall limiter is a HUGE disadvantage to the person using it.  Sure it will stop you from spinning, but it severly limits how far back you can pull the stick.

I won't comment on the rest except to say that removing the auto-trim would succeed in making the game incredibly boring.  Right now I tend to alt-tab or watch TV on long flights, I'd go nuts having to constantly adjust my plane.

[Saintaw]

2. => Who's gonna hold your joystick when you go for a pee?

mhh... that didn't sound as intended

[deSelys]

Innominate

Auto take-off is a help IMO. Like I said, the F4U will easily swerve out of control if you get sloppy during the take-off run.

Btw I've never tried to take-off a fully loaded F4U-1D (100% fuel, 2x1,000 lbs bombs and 8 HVARs) from a CV using auto take-off. Because it is quite tricky to do it manually.

Long flights ARE boring because you don't have anything to do. If you have to trim the plane manually and perform minor adjustments regularly, you won't have to go watch the TV. And if you don't want to miss the show, you'll still have the possibity to activate the aid...

[Shiva]

Long flights ARE boring because you don't have anything to do. If you have to trim the plane manually and perform minor adjustments regularly, you won't have to go watch the TV.

Spend two hours watching a DVD movie on your TV and pressing the 'play' button on your remote every fifteen seconds. Not because it makes the movie you're watching any better, but because if you don't, the DVD will stop, and you'll have to start over again from the start of the movie. And the first hour of the movie consists of nothing but mindless exposition by talking heads, but there's no way to fast-forward past it to get to the plot.

If you're going to be accurate like this, then you're going to have to incorporate plane-specific features, like the three-dimensional autopilot on the B-17, which operated via a completely separate set of links to the control surfaces from the control cables attached to the stick and rudder, and could be used to maneuver the aircraft even after the control cables had been shot away -- not only trim, but banked turns, skid and drift adjustment, and other functions that let a B-17 pilot with control cables shot away continue  the mission with the rest of his box.

Then there's the mixture, cowl flaps, prop pitch, and other controls required for engine management. Let's make players learn all the grunt-level details of flying each plane. Let them have to scramble to remember which control switches to Mag 2 after their primary magneto is shot away and their engine shuts down. Make the F4F and FM2 pilots have to hand crank their landing gear up by pressing a key every couple of seconds, and have it deliver a 'pilot wound' if they have to stop to do something else and don't press the 'snatch hand away from landing gear crank' key, as the gear drops again and the crank handle spins in reverse and breaks their wrist.

There are all kinds of things, deSelys, that would add to the realism of flying a plane in AH -- and that wouldn't add a thing to the experience of air combat that we already have.

It's interesting to see how often people's suggestions for improving AH turn out to be "I want to make everyone do this" suggestions, rather than "This would make play more enjoyable" suggestions. If you don't like the autotrim functions and automatic takeoff, you don't have to use them. The autotrim functions are because HiTech decided that having them was less intrusive and more enjoyable than having some players have to keep aileron and rudder deflection at all times while flying, while others could just dial in trim, and others could kick back and fly in autopilot, depending on what plane they were flying. I don't see you complaining about how you can take off from an airfield and be into a furball over an enemy furball in five minutes, even though that's grossly unrealistic -- or that three fighter pilots, one transport pilots, and ten paratroops can capture an entire airfield.

[Wmaker]

Originally posted by deSelys
I like the 109, but I'm sure it will feel different when I have to keep rudder pressure during whole flight. For those who don't want to bother with this, it is possible to activate the 'aid', but it will decrease the ENY value a bit.

.......

4) about the 109 again: the ground handling characteristics of this plane were awful. However, it is a very easy plane to taxi, get off the ground or land here in AH. The F4U for instance, needs much more attention during take-off and landing runs (and rightly so). Would it be possible to adjust the 109 ground handling to be closer to reality? If needed, I can scan and OCR an article by Mark Hanna flying a Bf109G10 (D-FEHD) and another by Capt. Eric Brown giving his experience about a bunch of 109s.

You are right about removing the trims that didn't exist in real life (like rudder trims in earlier 109-variants in AH). However AH's Bf109G-6 and Bf109G-10 did have rudder trim in real life and thus should have them in AH too.

It's a common myth that 109-series' ground handling characteristics were "awful". I do agree that there were things you had to be aware of but there was nothing that normal training couldn't have taken care of.

Here is a good quote from the home page of Tikkakoski Finnish Air Force Museum:

"Why was the Bf 109 so prone to swing on take-off?

The Bf 109 take-off swing was a very well known and notorious phenomenon. Already the external looks of the aircraft’s landing gear indicate that it is very easy to suspect it to be the culprit for the whole event. However, this is not the case. The swing is mainly caused by the the propeller slipstream which does not move backwards in a straight line along the fuselage but in a spiral path which is caused by the angle of the propeller blades to the aircraft’s center line. When this spiral airflow hits the tail, it tends to turn the rudder (seen from the back where the starboard and port sides of the aircraft are defined) to the right and the nose to the left. The swing can be compensated with an appropriate use of opposite rudder. If the tail is lifted too soon during the take-off, the propeller’s gyroscopic forces contribute to the left swing.

The narrow landing gear track creates the conditions for the swing: the brakes turn (prevent the swing) less effectively than with a wider track gear. The Bf 109 gear track is undeniably narrow ( Bf 109 E 1,97 m, 109 G 2,06 m, 109 K 2,1 m), but, for example, the Spitfire’s track is only 1,68 m. However, this is only a half of the case.

The other and decisevily important factor is the aircraft’s relatively rearward center of gravity. If the swing is allowed to develop, the rearward c.g. increases the swing and not even the highly regarded Messerschmitt brakes could no longer rectify the situation. If the pilot at this stage closes the throttle, it increases the swing still and the inevitable will happen: the landing gear collapses. In reality the process is also very quick. In addition it must be said that although the take-off swing is well-known and notorious, almost as many accidents took place during landings when the aircraft was allowed to swing.

The Bf 109 landing gear has been blamed for the swing without a cause. The real reason has been between the stick and the seat. The whole swing problem was a mere instructional mistake. The pilots should have been made to adopt one golden rule: the Messerschmitt Bf 109 must be steered to go absolutely straight during the ground run in take-off and landing and any tendency to swing must be corrected immediately with a well-timed use of the brakes and/or the rudder."

[Mark Luper]

Ditto what Shiva said.

I would like all the added workload of firing up and flying one of these critters...Sometimes! But most of the time I just want to get in and go furballing or whatever without all those added "Features".

This is one case I think it is best as it is.

[gofaster]

Originally posted by deSelys
As every other AH customer, I feel myself authorized to suggest to add or alter some features to the game:

1) Make it worthy to new users to quit using aids like:
            - auto take-off
            - stall (or AoA) limiter
            - auto fuel tank selection (but make it possible to select both wing tanks at the same time...)        
            - combat trim...
2) Get rid of the auto-level, auto-angle and auto-speed trim settings, and make an extra 'aid-feature' of them (see point 1).

3) Get rid of the 'high temperature safety' on WEP.
4) about the 109 again: the ground handling characteristics of this plane were awful. However, it is a very easy plane to taxi, get off the ground or land here in AH.
5) I would like to have a simple radiator feature in AH. Maybe 3 positions would be enough:
           - open:
           - auto:  
           - closed:

For 1) - then everyone would fly the planes with only 1 gas tank.  Besides, I don't like messing around with trim at every altitude.
For 2) - then everyone would fly the Spitfire.
For 3) - sounds good to me.
For 4) - then nobody would fly the 109 (very bad for holding TODs).
For 5) - sounds good to me.  Would help control item 3.

[Masherbrum]

Everyone's a critic.

Karaya2

[deSelys]

Thanks for your inputs.

Shiva:

I haven't said I wanted auto-trim to disappear. I would just like to see it considered as an aid with a minor penalty for its use.

As you said, I am free not to use it. However, you can't have a 109 with elevator trim only (like it was in RL) AND auto-trim available... Auto-trim implies that all 3 axis are equipped with trim.

OTOH, I agree that it should still be available without any cost for planes having a pilot and a co-pilot (like most bombers).

Honestly, I believe that this feature adds some realism without taking much fun out of the game for most, while mixture controls would be 'a bit too much' (although I wouldn't complain if they were introduced. CFS had them and it wasn't too hard to handle).

Then there's the mixture, cowl flaps, prop pitch, and other controls required for engine management

Mixture control: see above
Cowl flaps: see 'radiator' suggestion
Prop pitch: don't we have it already?

I'm not demanding to have every detail modelled. I'm suggesting that some more features are added. If they aren't well I won't cancel my account.

Would you accept to have those realism features removed from the game? :
- limited fuel, realistic combat range (at least in % from plane to plane)
- limited ammo
- blackouts
- max AoA
- max G load
- max dive speed
- trim
....

Please tell me what is (are) the difference(s) between my suggestions and the existing features?


Wmaker:
Thanks for the text. I'll OCR what i have but it will take me a couple of days

Karaya:
What exactly do you mean? I'm not criticizing the game (at least I don't meant to), and if you felt it that way, I sure hope you saw it as constructive criticism.

[hazed-]

Originally posted by deSelys


Long flights ARE boring because you don't have anything to do. If you have to trim the plane manually and perform minor adjustments regularly, you won't have to go watch the TV. And if you don't want to miss the show, you'll still have the possibity to activate the aid...

Absolutely dissagree 100%

I use auto climb and while its on i can answer phones go get drinks or food watch tv etc.Also its a HUGE aid for formation flying when the guys you are flying with have not got much flying experience.
 
Il2 has this constant trim adjusting you mention and I dont play it SOLELY for this reason.

Rather than removing it from AH why doesnt someone ADD it to IL2!!

I like realism in the flight model but i dont want to start adjusting trims constantly or manage magneto starters or fuel mixtures etc or all the other really boring crap that flight sims like microsoft flightsim 2001 has. ITS TOO BORING. I bought that game and got so fed up even trying to start the damn things engines i gave it to my friend. AH is a MMOG and needs to be much more pick up and play than boxed sims like il2 or MFS. People ask enough questions without people asking us what the sequence is to start a damn plane too.

not everyone who tries out this game is a flight sim nut, I should know Ive tried most of them over the years and realised im just not 'into' the hardcore side.AH's balance is perfect.I dont use auto takeoff or combat trim and i can trim planes easily (as in IL2) but im not prepared to spend hours constantly doing it just to fly straight.

as to engine overheat I'd say just make the engine receive damage if left running hot too long or somthing, anything else like having to change fuel mixtures at various alts will just piss me off.oh and if we are talking about the big bad 109 getting a free ride  vs the good ol' US f4U getting a bad time of it, remeber to look at the guns selection from cockpit on ALL planes. LW aircraft were able to select which guns fired whereas US/UK planes and others didnt.Do you want to give up being able to select them? there are many things that are overlooked for gameplay concerns.

the 109 is unstable and has a narrow wheel base which can cause problems despite what you say here but it is also a LOT lighter than the f4u and is therefore a lot easier to correct which it how it should be.Remember if you've flown AH for years you have already taken off/landed more times than most 109 or f4u pilots had done in the War.

Id say leave it up to HTC , they seem to have the ballance just right.

[Sup0ng0]

DESELYS friend, a detailing: and depends on the version of 109 has elevator trim to rudder trim, just as the Spitfire, or many other airplanes, that, or do not use trim aleiron, or use single in the left aileron, other planes yes use trim in all.

salute

Supongo

[deSelys]

Hazed please read my post just above yours. You'll see that we are at the same wavelength on some topics...Once again for all the features I suggest it is possible to activate an aid at some minor 'cost'.

BUT....what cracks me up, and that I have to qualify as utterly ridiculous, is that some of us (Shiva, and you too Hazed, sorry ) consider that playing a game like AH is as worthy as some RL flying experience:

Shiva

There are all kinds of things, deSelys, that would add to the realism of flying a plane in AH -- and that wouldn't add a thing to the experience of air combat that we already have.

Don't fool yourself, we develop absolutely zero practical experience of air combat while playing AH.

Hazed

Remember if you've flown AH for years you have already taken off/landed more times than most 109 or f4u pilots had done in the War.

I play AH since more than 1 year, but I wouldn't dare to believe that it would help me to take-off in a RL warbird. I don't even know enough to start the engine and kill myself.

I understand that I'm sounding harsh, but somebody had to tell you.

And please read my posts again, neither of what I suggest is compulsory.


Supongo: point taken, pal. From the G6, the 109s had rudder trim

[runny]

Originally posted by deSelys
As every other AH customer, I feel myself authorized to suggest to add or alter some features to the game:

1) Make it worthy to new users to quit using aids like:
            - auto take-off
            - stall (or AoA) limiter
            - auto fuel tank selection (but make it possible to select both wing tanks at the same time...)        
            - combat trim...
I would add a multiplier to the ENY value of a given plane if its pilot uses any of these aids, ie: F4U-1D using auto take-off and combat trim= 25x0.9 (auto take-off)x0.75(combat trim)= 16.875.

When I shoot down a plane, what do I care whether he used auto take-off, auto-trim, or any of these aids?  With the exception of combat trim and the stall limiter, what effect would any of these things have on the ensuing combat?  Why should I get extra perkies for knocking this guy off?

[deSelys]

Originally posted by runny


When I shoot down a plane, what do I care whether he used auto take-off, auto-trim, or any of these aids?  With the exception of combat trim and the stall limiter, what effect would any of these things have on the ensuing combat?  Why should I get extra perkies for knocking this guy off?

As the 'penalty' would modify the ENY value, you should get more perks (not much tho) when shooting down somebody using aids...

Oops edited (I take my remarks for myself and learn to read someone's post completely before I answer).

You're right. However, would you mind much for getting some more perks?? OTOH, if HTC want to develop this, they can also leave the ENY value unchanged when somebody using aids is shot down. It doesn't matter...