Author Topic: 1 v 1, me low, con high  (Read 759 times)

Offline Fancy

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 294
1 v 1, me low, con high
« on: August 19, 2002, 10:30:07 PM »
I've run into this situation too much and I can't think of a good solution.  I take off or I'm moiling low alt 5k- for whatever reason.  No one else is around.  I spot a high dot.  I move to investigate, sure enough it's a bogey and he's got a good few thousand on me.  My speed is average (cruising) but I have no potential E.  

When I first started playing, I would climb stupidly and lose all my E and the cons would just flip down and waste me by an olique angle and I had no E to turn my guns on him.  

For awhile I just flew straight under him waiting for him to dive so I could break, but inevitably he would land a good few pings on me (does AH model projectiles relatively?  I mean does a .50 cal bullet shot from a 500 mph plane do more damage than the same gun from a 250 mph?) and I'd be pretty much out of the game.  

Now I do a shollow climb until he starts his dive then I try to dive under his nose and break.  This rarely works either as he usually just loops under and inverts.

Should I just back off the dot in the first place and do a spiralling climb away from him, then maybe turn to engage?  What are the chances he'll be there at all?  What if it's important I stay and defend?  Planes I usually fly:  N1k, F6F.  Both good climbers.

Offline SKurj

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3630
1 v 1, me low, con high
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2002, 10:42:51 PM »
extend make him come to u, the further the chase the closer the e margin, and if u climb at a speed of 250 u will gain some e.

I use barrel rolls alot if he's coming at you really fast.  The f6 uses this well, not sure about nik it seems to do a quick break and reversal in hands of someone who knows what they are doing.


You will get a shot as he extends.  Don't go up on the first pass...  If he keeps goin, extend away from him again. Climbin slowly.

If he goes up, unload(0gee) and extend away u need some separation and speed to reverse on him.  If u get too slow with him direct above ya, your in trouble.


SKurj

Offline Blank

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 699
1 v 1, me low, con high
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2002, 07:43:05 AM »
the I also do alot of barrel rolls like  SKurj said, but you have to make sure the nme is coming in fast, otherwise he'll just saddle up on your six :(

As soon as i see the con (if I dont have the option to run away and gain alt) I will nose down slightly to gain e and get my speed up to at least 250 so i can manouver.

If hes alone and coming in really fast the from behind i'll wait until he's d600 to d800 away and do a barrel roll, and try to keep sight of him all the way through, and go for a snapshot, then I will nose down slightly and get my e up again.

If he's any good he will extend away and up and regain all his advantage,

If he's a noob he will turn horizontal and as your now behind him half the jobs done.

If he dives down from the front (fast) I will pull an immelman (verticle half loop) and as before he'll either extend (good) or turn and try to engage and burn all his e (noob).

this wont work for all planes.
Look for threads on ACM as there's much better pilots than me, but I seem to do ok in this situation :)

Offline jonnyb

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 593
1 v 1, me low, con high
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2002, 08:48:46 AM »
The key to surviving in the situation you describe is to equalize energy states and make the bogie fight on your terms.  To do this, you'll need to know how to maximize your effectiveness, and exploit the weakness of the enemy.  Obviously, the easiest way to equalize energy states is to extend away and climb up so you can engage your foe at the same altitude.  However, as you said, this isn't always possible.

In the broadest of terms, there are two types of planes: turners, and zoomers.  When you're flying a turner, and your enemy is flying a zoomer, all you have to do is keep turning out of his way.  If he's smart, he'll realize that he won't make his shot and keep extending.  If he's not, he'll attempt to turn into you, burning energy the whole time.  The opposite is true as well.  If you are flying a zoomer, and he's in a turner, he's no longer flying his aircraft to its potential by diving down on you.  Let him come.

As was said above, the key to this is patience.  Wait until he's less than 1k behind -- usually around 700 -- before you make your move.  By this time, he's committed, and thinks you are dead.  Either barrel roll, and come back for a quick snap on his 6, or do an immelman.  If he's diving hard and fast, there's no way he'll be able to pull up into you without ripping his wings off.

Either way, you are starting to gain energy, while he is slowly losing it.  The enemy now has two choices: extend or turn.  If he starts a flat turn, he's burning energy, and you've gained the advantage.  If he zooms away and climbs, extend in the opposite direction, slowly climbing.

Remember, the object is to first equalize energy states, then to gain the advantage.

Offline humble

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6434
1 v 1, me low, con high
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2002, 11:55:00 AM »
johnyb summed it up pretty nicely, real keys hear are planes and E state. As a general rule focus on equalizing your relative e state if possible. It sounds like your having a tough time denying a shot. Realistically defeating initial attacks from a "B&Zer" are fairly simple. Any of the trainers should be able to help you a bit. It's tougher with an E fighter who will give you a couple of passes to set you up while setting up a real attack once you (and he) have bled some E off.

A couple of points not mentioned are what plane you normally fly and what bogie gives you biggest problem here. If you fly a cannon plane this is where the front quarter shot really shines. After you avoid a pass the bogie will usually extend up above and repeat...if you time things right you can dive a bit and reverse up into him. He's picking up speed and losing control authority while your slowing and gaining control. Your not really trying for a "head on" but sometimes it will happen. What you want is a front aspect shot of some kind. As mentioned above some planes have tremendous rudder authority and can "flick" out of the way and set up a nice snap shot. F6 is ideal for this.

All in all I'd say best thing is play to your planes strength...if you fly a T&B plane then drsg con to deck...if your in a boomer then dont fly toward any con higher than you.

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline SKurj

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3630
1 v 1, me low, con high
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2002, 01:01:24 PM »
Waiting until he's 600-700 or even 800 can be suicide, especially if hes carrying hispanos...  I'd say time your move closer to 1k...

If he's comin in fast


SKurj

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Turn And Meet The Attack!
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2002, 08:52:07 PM »
If you can't run, and if you have to fight - always turn and meet your attack. Never let an enemy get a chance to fire behind you.

 Now, this is a bit difficult to explain, since the concept of "turning and meeting the attack" sounds awfully simular to a "dweebey HO attempt". Besides, this method is in form, very different from the conventional method of "extending away, saving E, and cutting down initial E differences" (although in basic principle, it is not very different).

 By turning and meeting the attack, I don't mean you should go for a suicidal HO. Going for an unlikely HO shot will deter your energy state even worse, and HOs are something that a careful pilot should rather not choose to do.

 The principle behind turning and meeting the attack is, "if the enemy has altitude advantage and performs a Boom and Zoom sequence on you, always try to give him the most difficult angle of the shot". It is easy for the enemy to aim your 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 oc angles. So, lure them into an angle which they have to take a difficult shot at 10, 11, 12, 1, 2 oc angles. By this you achieve this:

1) The enemy dropping down from a Boom sequence will have to take a shot at your front quarters at a fast speed, high rate of closure, in a steep dive and awkward bank angle. As you are facing him in a near HO angle, slightest move of your plane will result in a large change in his aim.

 This will minimalize his chance of getting a shot onto you.


2) By always meeting the attack, instead of showing your rear quarters, you give him the impression that you are keep attempting a HO in an insane manner. (I myself have been accused countless times for being a "HO" dweeb from the pilots I have shot down or chased away - when in truth I had no intention of going for a HO, or haven't fired even a single shot)

 This will either;

 (a) annoy him, make him get mad and irrational, getting aggressive pass after each pass, thus, prone to making a big-time mistake
 (b) make him become more careful than he needs to be, which just might buy you the advantage or a chance to escape.


3) The nature of the enemy's attack, and your flight path, in effect, gives out the most ideal situation for utilizing a defense/reversal attempt barrel-roll. Extending away from the enemy cuts down on the E difference, but gives out the most shallow and friendly angle for the attacker in shooting at you. It also gives the attacker enough time to think, estimate and counter your defensives. However, when you turn and meet the attack, the distance between you and the attacker closes very fast, which means his attack angle is getting steeper all the time. He doesn't have as much time to think what you are up to, as he will be in most cases concentrating on targetting.

 Unlike attempting a barrel-roll against something chasing you, this situation is a bit less obvious and a lot less dangerous. Since the attacker BnZing you is always diving on you, there is no way for him to just 'slow down' during the dive and laugh at your barrel-roll attempt. If the enemy tries to counter the barrel roll by slowing down and latching behind you, he dismisses his E advantage with his own hands. And even stil,l in most cases, it is highly unlikely he will successfully latch onto you - because, as stated above, he is dropping in fast, in a steep angle, with high dangers of black out, and at the most unfavorable angle for maneuvering behind the target.


4) Pass after each pass, the enemy's E-state dissolves away in a tremendous rate. Though his acceleration speed is high(because he is in a steep dive), if he misses(which is veryy likely), he will have to;

 (a) either pull off at a very abrupt manner(which kills E fast)
 (b) extend away level(buys you enough time to prepare for the next attack)
 (c) or continue the dive(which puts you in the advantage of getting behind his back)


 But there is also high risk involved in turning and meeting the attack. Turning onto him drains your energy, and once you have turned into the enemy timing your escape is very difficult. The enemy can also try and control his dive speed and angle, or he might try to lure you instead by making you turn very steep and upwards into him, thus making you vulnerable for a "Hammerhead(Rope-a-dope)" sequence. Meeting the attack, also requires good judgement - timing is essential, and judging whether you meet the attack in a purely defensive manner or in an attempt to force a reversal, requires a lot of experience.

 Thus, turning and meeting the attack is a game of E-balance: you drain your energy in the attempt to meet the attack, and in turn, try to force a situation where the enemy drains even more E than you. Compared to the method of extending away from the attack, meeting the attack is therefore, a much more aggressive form of defense where you force him to bleed E, instead of letting the E difference diminish in a passive manner. This means if you succeed, you will be more highly rewarded, but if you fail, the consequences will be more serious.

 Turning and meeting the attack is usually performed by the pilots who use generally a more maneuverable, but slower plane. All those instances of Spitfires gaining the edge over the enemy who started off higher has a lot to do with meeting the attack. People will resent them and call them "HO dweebs". But in my experience, there is a recognizable difference between the "true HO dweebs", and the real ace pilots. When fighting against those pilots, each of their maneuver resembles an all-or-nothing HO attempt, but they move out of the HO line at the last minute time after time, and no matter how hard you try, they always seem to be coming at near HO angle - a very unsettling and uncomfortable situation for a BnZ attacker. After a few passes, you realize you have lost too much E to fight a more maneuverable craft, and have to withdraw.

 Although generally a slower-but-more-maneuverable plane will use this tactic, this can be utilized by many planes. It is my favorite tactic in squaring off against high P-51s in a Bf109G-10 - in this case, the Bf109G-10 outturns the P-51s by a little margin, and climbs much better, which maximizes the advantages of meeting the attack. With each failed pass a P-51 loses E, but my G-10 gains altitude at a tremendous rate. After a 4~5 passes the G-10 easily accumulates enough advantage to follow the P-51 zooming up and reversing the tables.

 Therefore, this tactic is to be used generally when you are in a slow and maneuverable plane, or when fighting against a higher plane with simular turning capabilities. It is not to be used against higher and more maneuverable planes(which are probably slower than you) - in this case, the conventional method of extending away is more effective.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2002, 09:05:18 PM by Kweassa »

Offline Fancy

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 294
1 v 1, me low, con high
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2002, 09:05:56 PM »
Thanks for the great advice guys!!!  I'm only just starting out AH, so you'll probably hear more from me.  But for now even these seemingly specific pieces of advice are helping me in a very general way.  I havn't yet figured out how to CORRECTLY think about E, but at least now every time I go into a fight I consider it.  The same is tru for AOA, etc.

Again, thanks.

Offline Gryffin

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 445
1 v 1, me low, con high
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2002, 11:46:53 PM »
Awesome post Kweassa, a lot of good info there.

Offline Mino

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 161
1 v 1, me low, con high
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2002, 01:23:54 AM »
One thing to remember is "Objects in your rear view are closer than they appear".

This means that if you see a con at d600 on your six, that con sees you at d400.

It is an internet thingy.

Offline SlapShot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9121
1 v 1, me low, con high
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2002, 08:24:24 AM »
If you turn your "engine" sound down and your "wind" sound all the way up, you will begin to hear E and judge its state by the level of wind passing by.
SlapShot - Blue Knights

Guppy: "The only risk we take is the fight, and since no one really dies, the reward is the fight."

Offline Icer

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 522
1 v 1, me low, con high
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2002, 12:11:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
If you turn your "engine" sound down and your "wind" sound all the way up, you will begin to hear E and judge its state by the level of wind passing by.


Sheesh! You weren't working yesterday either! Do you sleep with an audio tape? I can see it now... "Base under Attack Slappy" over and over...

 :D
Win11 Pro 23H2/ Asus Z790-PLUS D4, / i9-13900KF @5.8Gz, 64GB DDR4 @3192mhz / 2TB M.2 NvMe Boot Drive, Zotac Gaming GeForce 4090 - 546.33 drivers/ 3 Samsung 32" 7680x1440 at 144Hz  / TIR 5/ TM Warthog HOTAS w/VirPil stick base/ MFG V3 Pedals/ TM MFDs on 8" Lilliputs/ Simgears ICP/ Varjo Aero VR

Offline icemaw

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2057
1 v 1, me low, con high
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2002, 02:26:55 PM »
icer ill be in the ta at about 7pm pac time tonight if you wanna go over this.
Army of Das Muppets     
Member DFC Furballers INC. If you cant piss with big dogs go run with the pack

Offline Icer

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 522
1 v 1, me low, con high
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2002, 06:16:25 PM »
Wait for me there ice....
Win11 Pro 23H2/ Asus Z790-PLUS D4, / i9-13900KF @5.8Gz, 64GB DDR4 @3192mhz / 2TB M.2 NvMe Boot Drive, Zotac Gaming GeForce 4090 - 546.33 drivers/ 3 Samsung 32" 7680x1440 at 144Hz  / TIR 5/ TM Warthog HOTAS w/VirPil stick base/ MFG V3 Pedals/ TM MFDs on 8" Lilliputs/ Simgears ICP/ Varjo Aero VR

Offline Xjazz

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2653
1 v 1, me low, con high
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2002, 12:17:02 PM »
GREAT TOPIC!

(punt)

S! Kweassa!