Author Topic: Methods for attacking B-17s by Lt. Franz Stigler  (Read 819 times)

Offline H. Godwineson

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Methods for attacking B-17s by Lt. Franz Stigler
« on: August 20, 2002, 11:00:47 AM »
The quotes below by Lt. Franz Stigler of JG 27 were originally printed in an article entitled Defending the Reich, in the September, 1975 edition of Airpower magazine.


The intervening years have tended to blur my combat missions together, but one attack against the bombers stands out in my memory.  It was early 1944 and an unescorted formation of B-17s came up from the Mediterranean to bomb Germany.  Our group (36 aircraft) was ordered off to intercept...We made contact just north of the Alps, a few miles from Munich.  No escorting fighters were around and I radioed the group commander, informing him that we could attack at will.

For some reason, unknown to me, the group commander ignored my information.  The other two squadrons continued to fly around the bomber formation of approximately 100 planes, just out of range.  Finally, after repeated calls to my commander...I initiated the attack.

I led my twelve plane squadron down in a screaming dive...We flashed past the high combat box in an overhead pass, continuing on through in a breakaway, before climbing back up for another attack.

With no escort fighters to challenge us, we swept through the B-17 formation five times.  Twenty-four of them sagged from their boxes and although we suffered hits, not one fighter was lost and no pilots were even scratched.

In addition to our success, the attack impressed upon me the absolutely critical need for fighter escort which even heavily armed bombers like the B-17 required.  In the ensuing months I learned the hard way never to attack a heavy bomber from the rear, even though the Luftwaffe high command gave out orders stating that this was the best way to do the job.  After following orders and being shot down several times, I decided to go in from above whenever possible.  With high speed built up in a dive, my aircraft made a very fleeting target and the more vertical my descent, the more difficult it was for the top turret gunner to get an angle on me.  Most of the time I was through the formation before he even saw me and would be climbing back up for another pass.

On this type of approach, the firing time allotted to me was extremely limited.   I could get in only one short burst.  But I was going so fast that I was also harder to hit...

When diving down from above, a few hits from your 20mm cannon was all that was necessary.  Your target was usually made up of the pilots' cabin, the engines and the wing's oil and fuel tanks.  Diving from above really eliminated a great deal of the enemy's potential for defense.  In many instances you were going so fast, his top gunner never sawy you, and if he did, it was difficult for him to fire straight up.  The target that the (bomber) presented in this attitude was the widest possible and after making your pass, you could usually break past without any other guns, from the ship being attacked, shooting at you.  Guns from from bombers on either side, however, could reach you quite well, but here again your speed aided you, and as you apprached their sistership, fire would have to be withheld for fear of hitting their own bomber.

Before the coming of the chin-turreted bombers, a headon pass was a good choice, if you broke down low, but they could see you coming from a long way out, and you could be hit by other ships in the formation


Hope you guys enjoy reading this.  More to come later.


Regards, Shuckins

Offline DarkglamJG52

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Methods for attacking B-17s by Lt. Franz Stigler
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2002, 11:14:34 AM »
Great read.

Attack from above is also the best solution against AH buffs.

Offline Masherbrum

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Methods for attacking B-17s by Lt. Franz Stigler
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2002, 11:36:42 AM »
Great read, it is always enlightening to read WWII combat stories.

Thanks bro!

Karaya2
FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC

Offline Hristo

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Methods for attacking B-17s by Lt. Franz Stigler
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2002, 01:14:46 PM »
In that way AH is so much like Stiegler describes. Attack from above is the best way to bring down bombers in AH.

With a little note that bomber guns seem more effective in AH than Stiegler would suggest, but I did not say that ;).

Offline akak

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Re: Methods for attacking B-17s by Lt. Franz Stigler
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2002, 01:32:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by H. Godwineson
...I decided to go in from above whenever possible.  With high speed built up in a dive, my aircraft made a very fleeting target and the more vertical my descent, the more difficult it was for the top turret gunner to get an angle on me.  Most of the time I was through the formation before he even saw me and would be climbing back up for another pass.

On this type of approach, the firing time allotted to me was extremely limited.   I could get in only one short burst.  But I was going so fast that I was also harder to hit...

When diving down from above, a few hits from your 20mm cannon was all that was necessary.  Your target was usually made up of the pilots' cabin, the engines and the wing's oil and fuel tanks.  Diving from above really eliminated a great deal of the enemy's potential for defense.  In many instances you were going so fast, his top gunner never sawy you, and if he did, it was difficult for him to fire straight up.  The target that the (bomber) presented in this attitude was the widest possible and after making your pass, you could usually break past without any other guns, from the ship being attacked, shooting at you.  Guns from from bombers on either side, however, could reach you quite well, but here again your speed aided you, and as you apprached their sistership, fire would have to be withheld for fear of hitting their own bomber.

 



That's the tactic allowed me to down over 79 bombers last campaign while only being shot down 5 times.  


Ack-Ack

Offline H. Godwineson

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Methods for attacking B-17s by Lt. Franz Stigler
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2002, 02:12:31 PM »
Stigler himself flew more than 500 missions and was shot down an astonishing 17 times.


Regards, Shuckins

Offline Awulf

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Methods for attacking B-17s by Lt. Franz Stigler
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2002, 02:18:28 PM »
This is cool :D

Offline Creto

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Methods for attacking B-17s by Lt. Franz Stigler
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2002, 03:29:34 PM »
Bah! just another Urban legend ;)

Offline Wilbus

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Methods for attacking B-17s by Lt. Franz Stigler
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2002, 04:02:08 PM »
Very nice reading, and as has been said, it's the best tactic in AH aswell :)
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Methods for attacking B-17s by Lt. Franz Stigler
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2002, 04:25:26 PM »
Yep that works in AH too, but the top turret of any single bomber is much more effective in AH than he says. The top turret can and will often blow you up from 800 plus in a dive attack.

Offline AKcurly

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Methods for attacking B-17s by Lt. Franz Stigler
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2002, 04:35:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yep that works in AH too, but the top turret of any single bomber is much more effective in AH than he says. The top turret can and will often blow you up from 800 plus in a dive attack.

Grun, I don't care who's at the guns, a vertically attacking plane is REALLY tough to hit.

curly

Offline hazed-

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Methods for attacking B-17s by Lt. Franz Stigler
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2002, 05:25:25 PM »
curly come on mate. if you gun in a B17 you can plaster guys as they dive in from vertical because even if they deviate a few degrees they are easy to track.yes harder but not very if you have a little practice behind you.Ever dived on mitsu? :D
The 50 calibre from bombers does quite a bit of damage from my experience, firing it and attacking it. that is up until fairly recently where youre lucky to have a bomber left after 1 pass :) (seems to me damage model on new 3 formation bombers is way screwed)

from what you read in this post it suggests that even huge combat boxes had trouble damaging the fighters and if you read 'combat crews' by john comer you will read several accounts of bullets bouncing off even 109's! The guns were good but nothing like as good as we have in this game.

Lets face it AH 50 cals are a joke rather than realistic.German 20mm although decent for hitting power have no real explosive behaviour, for instance there is no way to explode a plane other than a direct hit to the pilot of all things!. Where is the fuel tank exploding hits? its the same for any other 20mm with HE shells but especially for the LW ones because they had rather good types developed for downing bombers.

what ive come to accept is all guns in this game ARE JUST A GAMES GUNS. they bear a resembelance to the real ones,even deflecting with good physics etc, but they are not perfect copies of the real thing.Many accounts in books differ considerably to what we see in AH (book i mentioned for one) BUT AH is just a game and the way they are is the way they are.
what i find a little annoying now is the constant claims of their perfection in behaviour.Its good! but...well you get the idea and i digress.

these tactics described here work well but most of the others like ones describing head on attacks or targeting the rear gunner to kill him 1st all fail miserably against AH's 50cal wonder guns.much of the time its lag or just plain poor gunnery skills that save your bellybutton in an attack.A reasonable gunner will at the least blow your engine, if not take a wing in a single pass.

Offline brendo

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Methods for attacking B-17s by Lt. Franz Stigler
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2002, 07:50:48 PM »
Well, he also returned to base one day with over 80 bullet holes in his aircraft.

And he also RTB with a hole in his forhead and a chip of skull missing after get hit by a .50.

Offline Viper17

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Methods for attacking B-17s by Lt. Franz Stigler
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2002, 08:48:16 PM »
Doing a topdown attack i find it easier to fire a rocket or 2 in to down the bombers. LW rockets work much beter than the A2G rockets of other craft.

Offline AKcurly

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Methods for attacking B-17s by Lt. Franz Stigler
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2002, 12:29:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hazed-
curly come on mate. if you gun in a B17 you can plaster guys as they dive in from vertical because even if they deviate a few degrees they are easy to track.yes harder but not very if you have a little practice behind you.Ever dived on mitsu? :D

This conversation has gone around the bush several times.  Mitsu has fired hundreds of thousands of rounds from the b17 guns and he has the hand-to-eye coordination of an adolescent mongoose.
Mitsu isn't alone.  Hangime used to be a terror in a b26.

Vertical attacks against all pilots (except for a very few) are safe.  They just can't hit you.

I used to fly buffs a lot and my gunnery is decent.  But, a determined vertical attacker will always get me.

Usually, you get dumb approaches; occasionally, you get guys who make one vertical approach, land a few rounds, but don't have the discipline to reposition.

But the guy who makes a vertical approach and carefully repositions will get me every time.  He may not get mitsu, but he'll get the rest of us. :)

If WW2 buff gunners had the luxury of re-upping after their buff got killed, yeah, I suspect a few might have become as good as mitsu. :)  But, they just didn't get the practice.

curly