Author Topic: The Real Eve  (Read 3033 times)

Offline ra

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The Real Eve
« Reply #225 on: August 28, 2002, 11:02:49 AM »
Miko2d,

Second Law.
Yes, the entire universe is obeying the 2nd law, but if evolutionary theory is true, then life defies the 2nd law.  If a rock is found floating in the air defying gravity, it is breaking the laws of physics.  The fact that all the other rocks are obeying the laws of physics doesn't change that.  Evolution theory says that the most complex structures know to exist (life) were assembled by random events.  That is a floating rock.

Immortality.

I don't see much point, but immortality would be a great way for genetic information to be passed on.  If a life form was immortal, ie. if it could theorically live and reproduce forever if it was never eaten or squashed, then it would have the ability to spread its information continuously, while its offspring were free to mutate and spread their information too.  For example, if a sea turtle never aged, it wouldn't matter if her clutch of eggs was eaten before getting a chance to hatch.  She would be back on the beach next year laying a new clutch, year after year, century after century.  So long as she wasn't eaten herself. This sounds like an effective way for DNA to propogate itself.  And that is what the theory of evolution says:  life in all its forms exists merely to propogate DNA.  That has always struck me as sounding like the old joke that pigeons were created so that pigeon poop would have a mode of transportation.

As far as longevity among humans goes, it's all very interesting but it doesn't pertain to most of the posts in this thread which are about macro evolution, not micro evolution (natural selection).

ra

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #226 on: August 28, 2002, 11:08:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ra

Second Law.
Yes, the entire universe is obeying the 2nd law, but if evolutionary theory is true, then life defies the 2nd law.  If a rock is found floating in the air defying gravity, it is breaking the laws of physics.  The fact that all the other rocks are obeying the laws of physics doesn't change that.  Evolution theory says that the most complex structures know to exist (life) were assembled by random events.  That is a floating rock.


ra


This is why these threads go on and on and on. This question has been answered, yet since it is commonly claimed as a reason to refute evolution in the creationist mantra, the logical answers are ignored and the same old crap is rehashed.


Nevermind. Believe what you want. You obviously aren't interested in learning.

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #227 on: August 28, 2002, 11:08:46 AM »
AKSWulfe:Hey! You were watching the news last night too, huh? ;)
 I was painting my roof aluminum last night but I saw much earlier studies of rural/urban children subjected or free from farm animals' company.

Seriously though, I can't believe that was ever in question (about immune systems)... muscles will atrophy if you don't use 'em.
 If you don't put the immune system through it's trials and tribulations early on, that would lend itself to being under developed.
...eventually the offspring of two parents who did not develop their immune system will result in a child possibly without an immune system or with a very weak one....

 You are very confused here :) I have to tell you that citing "scientific" explanation you've heard on the news may make you a target of quite a few laughs.
 Here is how it really works - well, closer to reality, in any case.
 The issue is not with immune system unneended - despite all the progress the microbes around and populating us (some beneficial) would kill us in minutes it failed. It's that immune system has to face different tasks (many are harder harder) in civilised urban environment that in jungle forest.

 Allergy is caused not by atrophied immune system but complete opposite - overreactive immune system - that supposedly did not get a chance to be "calibrated" during early (intrauterine/early age) development.
 At the same time population dencity of urban living make a person much likely to be exposed to all kinds of germs than "uncivilised" life would. Lack of exercise is hardly an issue. The challenges may be different from those geneticallyn programmed. Exellenmt resistance to yellow fewer or malaria (same?) does not help much in New York.

Many birth "defects" come not only from two parents who were unhealthy, but also from very healthy parents. So healthy in fact, that the construction plans for their offspring altered such that the underused/unused body operations weren't fully developed, or developed at all in some extreme cases.
 I was thinking of that - whether major races diverged far enough for their sets of genes to lose some compatibility. It does not seem to be the case. Hybrids are quite good in most cases. Of course whites-asians are not as diverged as those two groups  from blacks and lived in similar "civilised" conditions with constant gene exchange.
 Blacks in US do have about 25% of white genes on average though it differs a lot geographically. Could have that negatively affected them? If it did, it would probably be in the most subtle and sophisticated systems.
 Of course the immune system is the most sophisticated system in our organism after the brain - likely to be affected by even minor screwup.

 Whatever the origins of disparity - evolution or mixing genes, it exists. Unlike brain, well-functioning immune system is necessary for survival in our society. And it's not a career suicide to notice and talk about racial differences with regard to immunity unlike the other kind of differences.

 miko
« Last Edit: August 28, 2002, 11:44:01 AM by miko2d »

Offline Elfenwolf

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« Reply #228 on: August 28, 2002, 11:12:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by wsnpr


As an atheist let me give you my take:

If atheists are right about the non-existence of God and afterlife,
when we all (atheists and everyone else) die it will not matter as we will not have the capacity to be aware.

That will sum it up for me ;)

BTW nice thread you've started.
Regards,
wSNPR


The way Heaven works is this- All us true believers sit around, play Aces High (and only fly perked planes) and get drunk on Mai-Tais.

The kinda-believers get to play Aces High but they don't get perked planes and they fire rubber bullets.

Non-believers are made to fly goonies and sit in field guns far away from the action.

Oh, there will be no Aces High staff in Heaven. :D

Seriously tho,wSNPR, don't you kinda hope you're wrong about the no afterlife thingie?

Offline Apache

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« Reply #229 on: August 28, 2002, 11:27:14 AM »
MT, I don't know what this world is coming to. They even let us Christians into college too.
I defer to your superior knowledge of biology.

To move on, the theory of evolution is a scientific theory, yes?
Note: I'm not going down the "it's only a theory" road.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #230 on: August 28, 2002, 11:42:29 AM »
Evolution is as important to Biology as Newtons laws are to Physics. It represents an explanation of the biological world as we observe it today that is elegant in it's simplicity and all encompassing in its breadth. It is as much a theory as Pythagoras' theory on right triangles.



I think http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/religion/faith/index.html
is one of the best sites I've seen regarding this question. It takes the view tthat religion and science may actually be compatible.

Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #231 on: August 28, 2002, 11:46:03 AM »
Apache- it gets kind of hard to ignore the chronological time line of ape-> human.

Among other things we have dug up from the ground and dated using carbon dating...

Just because you believe in religion doesn't mean that you can't believe in evolution.

What makes you think God wasn't smart enough to know that we'd want to know out about the "before time"?

If you think about it, he would of made it so that it started off very simple, but allowed for areas of growth and perfection.

Evolution is still very possible within the realm of religion, to ignore it, you have to ignore virtually everything that has been discovered in/on our planet and choose to only believe what you read in the Bible despite the proofs sitting in our museums.

Elf- "Seriously tho,wSNPR, don't you kinda hope you're wrong about the no afterlife thingie?"

Yeah, it seems kinda bleak don't it? OTOH, it makes you realise you only got one shot at enjoying being and then that's it. So live it up.

To all religious folks-

How do you explain to me that if you ask for God's forgiveness, no matter how extreme your sins are, you will be forgiven... eventually. While, someone who lives a life according to the ten commandments (ie: a good person), but he doesn't believe in God.. or at the very least isn't sure and doesn't ask for forgiveness... well he gets the short end of the stick..

How do you explain that? I mean, all of those child molesting priests... surely they will get a nice spot in heaven if they ask for forgiveness while someone who is a far better person but doesn't believe there's a God gets the short end of the stick?

Seems a lil' redundant to me, and would appear that heaven would resemble a hell more than anything.

A mass murderer could ask for forgiveness, and he will be forgiven... eventually.
-SW

Offline Apache

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« Reply #232 on: August 28, 2002, 11:48:25 AM »
You used an interesting word MT, observe.

What is/are the observable fact(s) of evolution?

Offline Apache

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« Reply #233 on: August 28, 2002, 11:51:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Apache- it gets kind of hard to ignore the chronological time line of ape-> human.

Among other things we have dug up from the ground and dated using carbon dating...

Just because you believe in religion doesn't mean that you can't believe in evolution.

What makes you think God wasn't smart enough to know that we'd want to know out about the "before time"?

If you think about it, he would of made it so that it started off very simple, but allowed for areas of growth and perfection.

Evolution is still very possible within the realm of religion, to ignore it, you have to ignore virtually everything that has been discovered in/on our planet and choose to only believe what you read in the Bible despite the proofs sitting in our museums.

Elf- "Seriously tho,wSNPR, don't you kinda hope you're wrong about the no afterlife thingie?"

Yeah, it seems kinda bleak don't it? OTOH, it makes you realise you only got one shot at enjoying being and then that's it. So live it up.

To all religious folks-

How do you explain to me that if you ask for God's forgiveness, no matter how extreme your sins are, you will be forgiven... eventually. While, someone who lives a life according to the ten commandments (ie: a good person), but he doesn't believe in God.. or at the very least isn't sure and doesn't ask for forgiveness... well he gets the short end of the stick..

How do you explain that? I mean, all of those child molesting priests... surely they will get a nice spot in heaven if they ask for forgiveness while someone who is a far better person but doesn't believe there's a God gets the short end of the stick?

Seems a lil' redundant to me, and would appear that heaven would resemble a hell more than anything.

A mass murderer could ask for forgiveness, and he will be forgiven... eventually.
-SW


SW your belief in evolution is no different than my belief in creation, they are both faith based. You can't prove macroevolution any more than I can prove creation.

How do we know that this ape creature you guys so highly refer to wasn't created, then destroyed before man was created?

Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #234 on: August 28, 2002, 12:03:20 PM »
It's actually a long series of ape-like creatures that becomes more man like as the series comes to a close with us, stretched over a couple hundred thousand years.

But in the case of evolution, it's far easier to see than creation.

Just hear me out, we are so closely related, in terms of body structure, to apes that it's astonishing.

Why do we need 360deg rotating arms? To scratch our backs? Why don't other animals have ball sockets in their shoulders to scratch their backs?

Was it because at one point we swung in trees? Or is it because God felt it would be easier to throw spears with ball sockets?

Why do our feet actually resemble ape's feet when viewed without the surrounding flesh and skin? Was it because at one point our feet were used as secondary hands to again grip tree branches at swing?

Is it possible that we were in fact a TYPE of ape, but not the kind we see around us today? A type that was able to adapt and alter itself?

Things like that will continue to go unanswered for a long time because we are relatively unintelligent in relation to everything around us.

It's all based around which is easier for you to swallow... but when we have examples of previous ancestors in museums, it gets very hard to swallow creation.
-SW

Offline ra

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« Reply #235 on: August 28, 2002, 12:07:34 PM »
Target,

Please indicate where I have put forward any creationist ideas.  I simply don't believe in macroevolution, that doesn't make me a creationist.  Evolution is science's best effort to explain the existence of life, but as a theory it is full of holes.

ra

Offline Apache

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« Reply #236 on: August 28, 2002, 01:27:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKSWulfe
It's actually a long series of ape-like creatures that becomes more man like as the series comes to a close with us, stretched over a couple hundred thousand years.

But in the case of evolution, it's far easier to see than creation.

Just hear me out, we are so closely related, in terms of body structure, to apes that it's astonishing.

Why do we need 360deg rotating arms? To scratch our backs? Why don't other animals have ball sockets in their shoulders to scratch their backs?

Was it because at one point we swung in trees? Or is it because God felt it would be easier to throw spears with ball sockets?

Why do our feet actually resemble ape's feet when viewed without the surrounding flesh and skin? Was it because at one point our feet were used as secondary hands to again grip tree branches at swing?

Is it possible that we were in fact a TYPE of ape, but not the kind we see around us today? A type that was able to adapt and alter itself?

Things like that will continue to go unanswered for a long time because we are relatively unintelligent in relation to everything around us.

It's all based around which is easier for you to swallow... but when we have examples of previous ancestors in museums, it gets very hard to swallow creation.
-SW


I understand your position and I certainly would not attempt to shove my beliefs down ones throat but IMO, macroevolution doesn't even meet the basic parameters of scientific theory. Its not observable, repeatable nor testable.

Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #237 on: August 28, 2002, 01:30:22 PM »
I understand Apache... I just think that it's just as totally out there, and plausible, as creationism(is that right?).... and I think it could just as easily fit with there still being a God.

Such as God creating, not us, but the basics. Cells that can evolve, DNA which are blue prints for life, and the ability for DNA to mutate (which does/has happened).

It's not that far fetched... creation and evolution could also go hand in hand (refer to paragraph above).

My opinion of course.
;)
-SW

Offline Apache

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« Reply #238 on: August 28, 2002, 01:44:05 PM »
SW, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm a creationist and believe God created all things, including man as he is in his current state, I just can't prove it. Thats a hoot ain't it :).

I you sir.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #239 on: August 28, 2002, 02:01:56 PM »
What do you mean by macro and micro evolution? Sounds like an attempt to dodge those things that are less readily observable by calling them macroevolution, while accepting the natural selection bit as micoevolution. Do I have that right?

And if I were to show a hypothesis - explanation - observation that agreed with evolution, would that really matter? I'm positive that even if there was irrefutable evidence of evolution there would be people who would call it a trick of the devil and still try to refute it.

But here goes anyway:

If we are decended from apelike creatures and apes are also decended fromn those creatures, then we should be more closely related to apes than to other animals. This should follow on down the line from more closely related to less and less like this
Great Apes - closest
Baboons -
monkeys -
mammals -
vertebrates
invertabrates
zooplankton
Plants
etc. etc.

If a genome map or a sample is made of the DNA in these different creatures it follows exactly as predicted by evolutionary theory. Is this proof? No, it is a proof.