Surviving JABO attacks... let's add some incentive

[AKDejaVu]

There are very few ways in AH to make people's actions have consequences.  K/S is one of them and some people hate it as a result.  Still... it makes people think twice about squezing the trigger with a plane in front of them.  It makes people think twice about sending a "I'm behind you" round into the friendly in front of you.  It makes people behave as if their actions had consequences.

That's what this idea does.  Some have said that the RTB aspect of it is questionable... OK... I can see your point though I don't agree.  Quick turns were a regular part of military life (re-arm pads)... so I don't see those as gamey.  Hopping in a brand new aircraft instantly I do see as gamey...  You've eliminated having to deal with the consequences of your actions.

I'm not trying to discourage engagements... I'm trying to make ignoring them less appealing.  I'm trying to make it less appealing for someone to crash into the ground and return to the same spot than it is to stick around and have to fight your way out (or even bother returning to base).  Both situations have less than likely survival rates... so why bother with even trying?  Life (fear of death) would be what encouraged many to do that in real life... but we don't have that here... what do we have?

AKDejaVu

[AKDejaVu]

Originally posted by Revvin


Exactly!  and I might add I have never seen 15 planes all suicide like you suggest Karnak.

I have to agree with this.. I've never seen this either.  Its a mythical event that people seem to throw into arguments... I could never quite figure it out.

The system that Dejavu proposes penalizes pilots who die trying to capture a field but does not penalize those who constantly launch from a field under attack and throw themselves suicidally at any attacker, infact the system Dejavu proposes actually rewards them for doing so.

Rewards people for launching from a field under attack?  I don't believe so.

It does make it more difficult to take a field.  I'm sorry about that Revvin, because you seem to think this is the end all be all of the arguement.  The fact that most attackers prefer an endless source of vulch victims pretty much makes the rest of it moot.

Attackers can fly NOE to a base undetected with only a couple of minutes notice prior to arriving at the base... at full speed.  They know exactly how far in the can get prior to being detected and the know if anyone is 500 feet or higher over the base.  They know exactly where all of the emplacements are, they know exactly what needs to be taken down and exactly how long it will stay down.  They know that if they can get the ack and vh, they can endless massacre anyone that attempts to launch.  They know that on the odd occassion that this isn't successful, they can instantly up and try the same thing at a different base.

Tell me again how bad it is to have people spawn at an airfield revvin?  Tell me again how bad it is that they can respawn the second they are killed... only to get killed again.  Really... I'd like to hear just how much easier you'd like to make capturing a base... and how much harder you'd like to make defending it.

AKDejaVu

[hazed-]

not saying i agree with deja here

BUT theres a silly but very enjoyable game online at the moment called 'Battlefield1942' by electronic arts(boooo) that is an arcade like WW2 FPS with planes and vehicles.It has a very simple system of making you wait longer for a respawn if you aimlessly run into a fight and die.The longer you survive and the more you kill the less the respawn time (its always a short period of 5-10 secs or so but if you die quick you wait 25 etc).

it works well.I know the first time i played it i charged in gun blazing and was promptly shot. after sitting for 20 seconds watching others play i was dieing to get back in there.Then i die again, more waiting then i think right THIS time i take my time,scout around, creep behind things for cover etc and after quite a good round i get shot but respawn instantly (almost).

it was a reward for not playing like a quake nut and soon you learn to change the way you play and its a great game and a lot of fun.

all games are based around challenge and reward and penalty and thats not just computer games is it??
if it's just as rewarding to just point the nose down, bomb and  crash as it is to try to do it correctly and survive people wont try to survive much will they?.

if it means they lose out for doing it they'll soon stop i bet.

[DarkHawk]

Right now for all kills landed you get perk points which allow you to fly better planes. Now each time you die you loose perks points. Now lets perk more of the planes, like the tiffie, p51d, and others. make the perks low starting at about 15 and going up. Just think 5 perks lost for each time u die, 3 perks for each capture no perks lost for a bail or ditch in friendly terriority.
Some say they want rank so tie perks into a rank achivement.  The more Perks the higher rank, but you loose rank with you perk count drops below the required level for that rank.
I have flow FAIII, there the rank system is tied to the points you score. Starting from zero and going up. You get so many for each kill and loose so many when you crash, die or get captured.
For one thing while flying there you do not see may sucide jockies. and they have ground target that need kill and airbase same as here.

Comments please.

I fly here instead of in FAIII for a number of reasons
1) varity of GV's ( FAIII none)
2) manned guns positions (FAIII None)
3) manned buff guns  (FAIII uses AI with a lot of complaints}
4) the Ground Battles (FAIII none)

FAIII does have more plane about 80+ many bombers for Russian, German and Japan

Terrain is better here in AH, in FA3 there are 5 sides in each map most of the time.
Map select is better here including the pizza one

DarkHawk

[Karnak]

Originally posted by DarkHawk
Right now for all kills landed you get perk points which allow you to fly better planes. Now each time you die you loose perks points. Now lets perk more of the planes, like the tiffie, p51d, and others. make the perks low starting at about 15 and going up. Just think 5 perks lost for each time u die, 3 perks for each capture no perks lost for a bail or ditch in friendly terriority.
Some say they want rank so tie perks into a rank achivement.  The more Perks the higher rank, but you loose rank with you perk count drops below the required level for that rank.
I have flow FAIII, there the rank system is tied to the points you score. Starting from zero and going up. You get so many for each kill and loose so many when you crash, die or get captured.
For one thing while flying there you do not see may sucide jockies. and they have ground target that need kill and airbase same as here.

Comments please.

Way, way, way, way, way too much a a penalty.  This would have everybody popsiclefooting around eachother.  It completely discourages combat unless the odds are dramatically in your favor.   It would drive fans of certain aircraft from the game (as an example, I'm a Spit XIV fan and I'd rather it hadn't been added).

Furthermore it would have the horrible effect of limiting the top end aircraft to the top players.  Remember that the average player's K/D ratio is approximately 1/1.  That means that he'll lose more perks than he earns under your system.

Bad, bad, bad idea.

[MrLars]

Baaaa...this thread is useless. WTF do you think we have M3's and C47's for? When I see a base getting raped like this I'll up in a supply plane or vehicle...that smoking base will be rebuilt before the 3rd wave comes in and all those "percieved" suicide jabo pilots will have to do it all over again.

Lately I've seen more and more players willing to run supplies, maybe THEY have already found a solution to your problem but just haven't told ya about it

[Revvin]

It does make it more difficult to take a field.  I'm sorry about that Revvin, because you seem to think this is the end all be all of the arguement.  The fact that most attackers prefer an endless source of vulch victims pretty much makes the rest of it moot.

Absolute tosh! if you're attackign afield to capture it how in the hell outside this fantasy vision of your's would an attacker love to see an endless supply of cons to up? It's got nothing to do with making it hard, it would probably lead to more bomber's being needed but if it needs a gimmick as gamey as you propose to do this then the AH MA really is in a sad state of affairs.

Attackers can fly NOE to a base undetected with only a couple of minutes notice prior to arriving at the base... at full speed.

Nice touch of realism there why should you have AWACS warning you all the time? many have waited a long time to be able to NOE.  

Tell me again how bad it is to have people spawn at an airfield revvin?  Tell me again how bad it is that they can respawn the second they are killed... only to get killed again.  Really... I'd like to hear just how much easier you'd like to make capturing a base... and how much harder you'd like to make defending it.

If a base is shot to bit's then it's horribly gamey to see most of the important structure's rebuild in a gamey 15 mins, where are these reserve planes coming from if the base was shot to bit's 15 minutes ago? from underground? beamed in from outer space? perhaps they were special invisible planes This is not about making it easier to capture a base what this is about is your desire to make it easier to have a field rebuild in an even quicker more gamey fashion.

Now I've answered your question answer mine, show me historical reference where a target's rebuild time was dramatically increased because of the later death of the attacking pilot.

[hazed-]

seems to me if some of these ideas needed testing it could be done in a seperate arena.

slight alterations to the way bases are captured could certainly add some depth to the existing setup.

if you disagree why did you say nothing when we got 3 or 4 hangers instead of the old 2? Why did you not disagree with towns at bases and radar warnings?

all these things have been added to make thinks a little more complex or difficult and all have been a success really. (I dont like the flashing base warning personally but its there and i plan around it)
Revvin it seems to me you dont want anything you dont agree with even looked at or tried.AKDeja is only proposing certain additions which who knows, could make AH even better?
could make it worse of course but hell, we can just change it back.

As to the mass suicide missions I hope you dont mean all of them are designed that way! I am constantly using jabo as my form of attack and i assure you i NEVER want to die doing it.Thats the whole point of playing isnt it?  I would have NO PROBLEM trying out what Deja said about rewarding a pilot for living and it seems to me only those that do just dive in drop and crash like suicide lanc drops on CV's would argue against it.

They neednt penalise kamakazi players...let them score what they do now but why not give those players who land them an even better deal???? longer downtime, more points, no respwan delays etc etc , whatever the rewards are.

to me it sounds perfectly correct for any game to do this sort of thing.why do some not? maybe they just want a shoot-em-up?

[Revvin]

if you disagree why did you say nothing when we got 3 or 4 hangers instead of the old 2? Why did you not disagree with towns at bases and radar warnings?

Dejavu insinuated that I wanted base capture made easy and he was way of the mark, if I did want it made easy I would have spoken out against more hangars but I did'nt I welcomed the new targets, hangars, towns etc so that expel's that myth about what I want

Revvin it seems to me you dont want anything you dont agree with even looked at or tried.AKDeja is only proposing certain additions which who knows, could make AH even better?

WRONG! I read the forums and there are plenty of suggestions I agree with and plenty of gamey gimmicky ones like this that reward players who spawn at contested fields and throw themselves endlessley at the attackers knowing they can re-up into the action and do the same again in seconds, this is what Deja's proposal rewards and that's why I'm against it, it's gimmicky and gamey.

I would have NO PROBLEM trying out what Deja said about rewarding a pilot for living and it seems to me only those that do just dive in drop and crash like suicide lanc drops on CV's would argue against it.

So it's oh so terrible if somebody suicide's against a hangar or a CV but perfectly acceptable to introduce a feature that will reward suicidal fighter's constantly respawning unlimited ammount's of times from a field under attack. Sounds more like what Fatty said right at the start "Pyro! They're not dying right! Make them die right!"