Anyone think this jail sentence reasonable?

[Kieran]

I don't disagree; but written as it was, it hinted at a government plan to protect the wealthy white kids and exploit the poor kids of all colors. That just isn't true.

[Toad]

So what about us that "hid" in college by taking a 4 year ROTC program and being commissioned upon graduation?

[midnight Target]

Not the point at all Toad.

Those that served deserve our respect and admiration. However, the deferment system had the net effect of sending the poor, disenfranchised and minority soldier to Vietnam in much greater numbers than those lucky enough to afford a 4 year college.

Or a cushy trip to an F102 wing.

[Elfenwolf]

Kieran, I agree that was the free market in action- in fact it's similar to the "free market" that existed during the Civil War where draftees could hire a surrogate to do their military service for them. No, no covert plan to protect rich kids- but that was basically the effect it had. I'm not whining about it, but my options for college was limited to a two year junior college as much for poor grades in HS as for economics, and they didn't issue school deferments for junior college students. BTW, I said nothing about the racial mix of Viet Nam soldiers, but now that you mention it yeah, there WERE a lot of people of color there.

Toad, the officers in Viet Nam were dedicated rather they had used ROTC to avoid being drafted as an enlisted man or not. I never once heard an officer squeak about the fates that caused him to be there ever. I have the utmost respect for anyone who completes an ROTC program and becomes a commissioned officer in the service; however, my respect turns to envy when that newly-commissioned officer is then put through flight school and gets to fly jets for a few years.

I stand by my statements- National Guard slots were highly coveted because they kept you out of the Viet Nam war. School deferments were only issued for four year institutions. Likewise joining a police force kept you out of the Viet Nam war. Now I wonder how long it'll be before someone claims I said all cops are draft dodging cowards?

Hmmm...these bbs things run in circles. After a few laps you get to know the track pretty well....

[midnight Target]

I didn't know that about the police force deferment.

[Elfenwolf]

MT, that's from my memory. I think it included fire departments too but I'm not sure.

[Maverick]

Quite a few of my fellow officers were Nam vets. Funny, they didn't seem to have a deferment.  Some even had families at the time they were called. Few of them were in the Guard and Reserves. I was in the minority when I was a cop.

I also went to ROTC in college. I certainly didn't come from a middle class financial background. My Dad died when I was 7. I put myself through college by working. My mother lived on and raised me on social security and VA benefits from my Dad. My college education cost my mother $50.00 as she bought my books one semester.

Yeah my draft number was 13 or 14. I still served 24 years, retired as a LTC up for promotion. I guess that makes me a non white draft dodger since I am of mexican american heritage according to elfy. Where is that rich priveledged stuff I was supposed to have elfy???

I certainly had no clue about the "market economy" aspect of military service. It was something we did, our fathers did and their fathers before them. Most of my family before my generation and a significant portion after served. We lived here, enjoyed what we could work for and paid it back by serving. We didn't have any rich inheritance or political "pull" to get what we wanted. We just worked for it. Novel concept huh.

[10Bears]

So it is your position that they give out an Honorable Dishcharge to a person that is AWOL?

No Toad, I hold the position that if you go AWOL they throw you in Leavenworth. But, if your name is Bush and CIA chief and congressman father has his friends falling all over themselves to do him a favor, than anything is possible. The brass can’t forge a certificate of discharge.. that’s going too far but they can lie and say “I believe he was honorability discharged”.

Glad Monte brought up the George Bush connection. The reason it relates to this thread is to show contrast between the entitled and the un-entitled-- most defiantly a double standard.

This kids mom didn’t have a $200,000 house she could put up for collateral, she didn’t have the $10,000 retainer most lawyers ask for. The sleepy public defender couldn’t defend his way out of a wet paper bag. He was expedient as possible this kid got no justice.

But look at the big picture here, how do we view ourselves as a sociality. Are we civilized? A way to view a civil sociality is how we treat our prisoners. We don’t lock up children in an adult prison for 10 years, we don’t execute mentally retarded prisoners. If we do we lower ourselves to the level of the Taliban or Saudi Arabia.

Back to the Bush question Toad and Kieran: The powers that be.... the one’s who knew Bush had a DUI for months but elected not to tell us until 4 days before the election, claim George Bush was discharged honorably. If that were the case, where is the certificate of discharge?

[Fyre]

lol....what a hijack.


so he's president....DEAL WITH IT.  in the last election it was the lesser of two evils, anyways.  you would be agruing some other equally moot point if Gore won the election.

back to the kid and the jail sentence.  if this was his first offense i would say that the ruling was a bit harsh.  however, this is NOT his first offense.  on that account, it doesn't matter what the severity of his actions were, the fact that he continued a life of crime (however minor) speaks for himself.  if you look at in the right light, the kid was given just enough rope to hang himself with.

[Elfenwolf]

Originally posted by Maverick
Quite a few of my fellow officers were Nam vets. Funny, they didn't seem to have a deferment.  Some even had families at the time they were called. Few of them were in the Guard and Reserves. I was in the minority when I was a cop.

I also went to ROTC in college. I certainly didn't come from a middle class financial background. My Dad died when I was 7. I put myself through college by working. My mother lived on and raised me on social security and VA benefits from my Dad. My college education cost my mother $50.00 as she bought my books one semester.

Yeah my draft number was 13 or 14. I still served 24 years, retired as a LTC up for promotion. I guess that makes me a non white draft dodger since I am of mexican american heritage according to elfy. Where is that rich priveledged stuff I was supposed to have elfy???

I certainly had no clue about the "market economy" aspect of military service. It was something we did, our fathers did and their fathers before them. Most of my family before my generation and a significant portion after served. We lived here, enjoyed what we could work for and paid it back by serving. We didn't have any rich inheritance or political "pull" to get what we wanted. We just worked for it. Novel concept huh.

(Sigh) Like I said, I wondered how long it would be before someone put words in my mouth and made the inference I somehow am putting down police officers. I'm just surprised it's you though, Mav. All I did was present several facts concerning what were and were not deferments during the Viet Nam War. If anybody wishes to twist what I said to make it appear I'm condemning the military, police and federal government then whatever, I guess you read a different language than I'm writing.

I was trying to add my two cents' worth about National Guard slots and draft deferments. At no time did I state GWB was guilty of desertion or using his fathers' influence to land a National Guard spot. At no time did I state police offers got into police work because it kept them out of Viet Nam. At no time did I say... You know, it doesn't matter what I say, does it? Hell, I'll make it easy. Think whatever the hell you want. I'm tired of my statements being twisted around by those of you who obviously have a personal axe to grind with me. And I damn sure won't humiliate myself by posting my military career and my own experiences in Viet Nam. It's not what defines me as a person, it's not germane to the conversation and it sure as hell is nobody's business who posts here. I'm so out of this thread.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Elfenwolf


Now about GWB and the Air National Guard- National Guard units were basically closed to the "common" potential draftee and were used as a heaven for the sons of the rich and powerful to avoid service in Viet Nam. ----- That's a fact, guys.

My brother served in the Air National Guard in '69, 70, 71...
My father was a LA Fireman.  I had no idea dad made so much money as a municipal employee.

From ABC News Website"The campaign was looking for payroll records that would show Bush reported for duty with the Guard in Montgomery, Ala., — a temporary assignment adjustment away from the Texas National Guard to accommodate Bush while he was working on the unsuccessful Senate campaign of former Postmaster General Winton Blount.
     
The new records were mostly duplicates of documents obtained by the campaign from the Texas National Guard headquarters in Austin about 18 months ago.
   
“The official records were either lost or misplaced or not filled out correctly or not deposited. We are not sure,” Bartlett said.

His orders, dated Sept. 15, 1972, said: “Lieutenant Bush should report to Lt. Col. William Turnipseed, DCO, to perform equivalent training.”

"To my knowlege, he never showed up,” Turnipseed said last month.

Roberto Trinidad, freedom of information officer for the Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver, said the military does not retain the sort of records Bush campaign officials are seeking.

“His payroll records are not here,” Trinidad said.

The military saves only the most important personnel records for 50 years. Less important documents, including check stubs, are destroyed.

I would hate to be assigned as a prosecutor at this court martial.  No evidence against Bush except hazy recollections, and a lack of paperwork.

Getting back to the original thread, only a few months of jail time, and a trip to Singapore for a caning.

[Kieran]

10Bears, just answer the question- how many convictions for violence did Bush have?

Can you say "irony"? You should be able to, if you are going to complain about the way politicians live above the law. You know what I mean. Then again, you can't seem to see past the surface of anything.

I gotta hand it to Toad, Easymo, and Lazs; all three have well-formed opinions that are articulated well in their distinct styles. They aren't just cutting and pasting the rhetoric of the extreme side of one party or another. Agree or disagree, their thoughts are their own.

[AKSWulfe]

Originally posted by Kieran
I gotta hand it to Toad, Easymo, and Lazs; all three have well-formed opinions that are articulated well in their distinct styles. They aren't just cutting and pasting the rhetoric of the extreme side of one party or another. Agree or disagree, their thoughts are their own.

I assume you are referring to the hijacking of this thread, and not the entire one...

because my thoughts sure were my own in this thread.
-SW

[Kieran]

Not talking about you at all, SW. Simmadownnah... though of course you were speaking from the heart and experience. S!

[AKSWulfe]

Just wondering was all, wasn't hot under the collar, just curious.

Thanks for the correction. S!
-SW