Anyone think this jail sentence reasonable?

[Kieran]

Elf-

Once again, my personna must sound angrier than I am. I am confused perhaps, and I don't understand how people have to let things go so far before they are willing to make a person accountable, but angry? Definitely not.

I am resolute in my belief that it is silly to let someone continue on a path that will make innocents suffer. Others don't feel that way because there is a chance the person may be ok in the end- the victims be damned.

[Toad]

How about lock him up in solitary with a computer and a few good educational programs on things he'll need to get along in the real world (High School GED stuff) and a bunch of good philosophical reading (the "classics" so to speak).

Like all computer based training he'd progress at his own pace. Set the course up to last at least 2 years if he hustled. Then, when he finished the course, he goes before a "board" that examines him to see if he actually learned the material. If he gets a "C" overall, they let him walk.  If not, back for more study.

Then he can be out in 2 years and he'll actually have been exposed to thoughts about how human society is supposed to work, etc.

Rather than just warehousing him to no purpose?

Of course... if he doesn't want to study he does the whole 10 years. In solitary though, he'd probably study just for something to do.

There, that's as kind as I get most likely.

[NUKE]

Maybe Canada can take in our "troubled, miss-understood youth" as a last resort before sending them to prison. Thrawn, you game?

All the kids/ gangsters that rob people, car jack, break into houses, beat up people, and have multiple felony convictions.....  they are just miss-understood.  

All they need is a Liberal to adopt them and take them under their wing.

Im sure a lot of Liberals are willing to have droves of these kids move into their communities as a last resort before they go to jail. Think of all the nice kids you could rehabilitate. If a kid accidently breaks into one of your houses, you could give him a big hug and perhapse give him a stearn warning about his behavior.

Please, make sure you let them know that they can never be held responsible for their actions, since they are not 18 yet.  

After 10 years Im sure you will have made  model citizens out of most of them.

[10Bears]

Hey yo Kieran Hangtime

[Kieran]

Your debating skills leave a bit to be desired, as does your temper.

Now go hug a criminal.

[AKSWulfe]

Kieran (sorry, spelt it wrong), what saved me? Well, after a couple run-ins with the law, I figured out and was taught how to avoid running in with them.

Not to say I've changed much since I was caught... but I've changed my habits so that I can't be caught..

Except for certain particulars of my past behavior... which I have completely dropped.

Why? Probably just because I got older and realized bad toejam will happen if I kept that up.

I don't think the problem is only this kid, but in how he was raised.. which is why I think there's a chance to help him out.

I certainly do not believe letting him slide will do anything for him. I do believe, however, throwing him into "big-man" prison will be detrimental to any chance of rehab he has.

Is it possible? Yes. With most government funded programs? Possibly, but if he runs into that one counselor(sp?). The one who is basically that kid, 20,30,40 years from now. The one who was heading for deep toejam, but somehow he got changed around and is now teaching kids just like how he was how not to get that way... then probably, he probably does have a chance of getting rehabed.

I don't believe all kids that are like him (in terms of repeat offenders) in the sense that maybe there's a chance. But in the case of this kid, I dunno.. it's just the things he's been charged with don't seem as bad as other instances I know of where those kids were rehabed.

Then again, I dunno. Nothing I type here on this UBB has any effect on this kid's going to prison or not. I only wanted to challenge your position, maybe inject some thought... "Maybe this kid isn't like the ones I dealt with that were in my neighborhood... maybe there is a chance."

I dunno... I just don't like jail being used as the be-all end-all for people who may not be as bad as those that are already incarcerated, but because they have a record... then screw 'em. Afterall, I CAN remember back to when I was his age... and doing stupid toejam like he's doing, man that was a rush... but like I said, I dunno.

I can counter your scripture with more scripture, and I'm used to the "your religion is responsible" comments by now...

That's not what I meant at all. Well, yeah, I was going to use scripture... but only as a means to open your eyes. Certain things in the Bible, atleast for me, always remind me of things. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" "Turn the other cheek" <-- things like that, they serve as a second guess. "Well, if I were a dumb bellybutton teen... what would I want?" Yeah, a lot of guys I knew thought they were hard bellybutton thugs. They wouldn't mind going to prison... they could take it... hell,  it seemed like a challenge.

but, later on, they figure out how stupid they were for thinking that.

That's all I'm saying.. maybe this kid needs a real reality check. His mom ain't doing it for him. I wonder if this kid was ever told to get a job? The cops ain't doing it. Hell, it ain't even their job. The Juvi detention center won't do it... rarely ever does...

I don't think this kid is a complete lost cause. And I had no intentions of insulting your religion, but to use at a means to maybe open up your eyes.. that crossed my mind.

Anyway, that's all I have to say.. if it makes ya feel any better, shoot my chute... it'll only take a bullet or two.. since it's a "softie"!
-SW

[Kieran]

And I have no ill feelings toward you, FWIW. I hope you understand my beef is with a system that allows people to continue to commit crimes until they commit the big one. I only wish it didn't take so many people suffering for something to finally be done.

Understand I never disagreed with you about what caused him to be the way he is. What I want you to understand is that I know that not every child is lost- but by the same token, not every one will be saved. There finally comes a point of no-return where the most drastic measure has to happen.

Where I was coming from on the Bible is this; God forgives you, but that doesn't remove your accountability for what you do in the earthly sense. Even Jeffrey Dahmer could have been forgiven, yet would be rightfully made to pay here on earth for his crimes. Yes, I am to turn the other cheek, but when it comes to my family I am only human. It would be different if it was just me, but it isn't anymore. It's a whole different game when it comes to your own kids and their protection. And, I am not so sure God would have me put my family at risk for the sake of one person; maybe, but I don't see it.

If you have the experiences I'm guessing you've had, you know the state of mental care leaves much to be desired, and therefore cannot be relied upon to be the safety net for society. Somewhere, somehow, the individual either is able to make a choice (as you did), or cannot. Once it is clear society cannot function with the choice a person makes (or is unable to make), there is little to do but to remove the possibility of harm to innocents. Nothing to celebrate, but inevitible. In the case of the hammer killer I mentioned, the boy had been identified before he got to me in 5th grade, and his tendencies were well documented. Needless to say, his name and picture in the paper came as no shock.

[Hangtime]

10 Bears.. I luv u man.

C'mere, lemme give yah a wet willie...

[Fyre]

i used to live in a town where there was once a shooting over a can of worms, literally.  the guy with the gun got off with no charges.  later that same month he used the same gun to hold up a post office.  it doesn't take a person with a college degree to figure out that a post office doesn't have much money.  i don't know what happened to the guy after that.

also, when you consider that a LOT of the medication passed out to kids these days is because of "misdiagnoses" (e.g. the parents don't have time to deal with the kids, so put them on ritalin), it makes you wonder who's really to blame.  i think that the mother should be held accountable for the kids wrongdoings.  however, i think someone stated earlier that the kid only had these "fits" when he didn't take his medication.  therefore, it's the kid's fault for not taking his medication and knowing what the consequences of those actions might lead to.  he's also old enough to know that what he did was wrong.  he's also too young to drink.

it's hard to say whether or not the kid had any moral judement, since the mother obviously had little to do with him...therefore she couldn't have taught him what's right and what's wrong.  this supports my reasoning that she should be punished as well.

however, humans are born with a natural sense of right and wrong, so the kid must have had some semblance of what he was doing.

do i think that 10 years is too much?  no...because i had to live with a town-full of these people while i was growing up.  the kid was arrogant about his crime, and that attitude is the reason why i think that 10 years is a fair sentence.  besides, if we as a community just let kids get away with things because they're minors, what happens to the community when these kids grow up, have children, and then let THEM do whatever THEY want?  if this kid's mother was this bad of a parent, think about what kind of parent this kid's going to be if he has children.

[AKSWulfe]

I understand and agree with you Kieran. I just don't agree that this kid is lost, yet. Won't know now, maybe prison turns him around... hopefully.

Either way, we'll just end up disagreeing on this one unless we get a lot more facts. Then who knows, I may have been wrong all along.

As for this...Yes, I am to turn the other cheek, but when it comes to my family I am only human. It would be different if it was just me, but it isn't anymore. It's a whole different game when it comes to your own kids and their protection. And, I am not so sure God would have me put my family at risk for the sake of one person; maybe, but I don't see it.

That's not what I mean.... I meant that I used those particular quotes, and the one I mentioned earlier before about "what you do to the least of my brethren, you do to me", as good life advice.

I've read a good amount of the Bible, and while I don't see it as a religious symbol (being non-religious), I think there's a good amount of knowledge and wisdom there for living a good life.

Anyhow... as for your family... Can't say I disagree with ya there.

Hangtime, use something other than Angelfire next time. You can upload images straight to the BBS... look below where you type next time you do a message..
-SW

[Maverick]

I haven't read all the posts here and don't intend to do so. I'm telling you this so you know I am not aiming any comments at any individual on the thread.

First off as to the fairness of the sentence. I agree with it. There was more than one felony count listed there in the last arrest that would warrant some serious time. The fact that the tard had ONLY stolen some beer is immaterial, He committed a felony just to steal beer. That is HIS problem not the societies or prosecutions. It was his choice to commit the burglary, no matter what he took. Would it make it any differant if he took a jewelry box that was placed in the garage? No. Why? Becuase it is still a burglary no matter WHAT he took.

The sentence is also based on past dealings and arrests. Why is that? Because a presentence report was given to the judge so the judge has a better grasp of the type of person he is sentencing. In this case the past arrests and severity of the crimes tell quite a bit about the state of mind and type of person the convict is. This is as much of a mitigating circumstance as the defense lays out to try and get their client a soft sentence. None of this is likely to be admisabble in court during thre guilt phase, it is only for sentencing after the conviction. This kid has "skated" in the past but didn't make it this time.

In my personal experiance I have run into kids like this. They know the system VERY well and will actually tell the arresting officer to his / her face that nothing will happen to them since they are a juvinile. I have had this very thing happen on more than one occasion. I have also seen family members tell a little snot that they have to watch out as their 18th Bday is comming and they will lose the "bloom of youthful innocence" and have to face adult charges. Yeah that's my sarcasm there but it still was the same idea. I was also told by one little snot that he was going to "go straight" the very next week as his 18th bday was that same week. The system is played quite frequently by a youthful offender.

No matter what the age of the offender the act has the same consequences for the victim.

As to the idea of reform in jail.... That's another topic for another thread.

[lazs2]

ok... maybe things are different these days or maybe this kid is just the most unlucky at getting caught of anyone in history but...  Back in the day.....

the smarter ones of us would get caught about 1 in every 100 crimes and the dumb ones about one in ten or twenty.   we would get off on some kind of loophole about half the time even if caught.    

prison is just like anywhere else... you make of it what you want.  you can learn in prison... you can learn to be a slightly better but no less lazy criminal or you can learn engineering.  Both are available..  you can spend 8 hours a day bodybuilding or you can study something.   Most of us would get something out of it other than some bulk.

I think that prisons should have learning programs and that education should be part of the parole process.   "good time" is not available without so many educational "units".

what someone does with all this is, of course, up to him.   I have no problem sending back or executing a repeat offender.   It's one hell of a lot better for us and a mercy for him.   Maybe he will do better in the next life.
lazs

[midnight Target]

Funny how it seems like its all or nothing in most of these discussions.

I think the kid needs to pay. I also think 10 years is way too much. A 16 year old sent to adult prison for 10 years in this case is a hateful miscarriage of justice. This doesn't mean that I feel sorry for the little salamander, or that I want to hug him until he sees the light... BS, I just think this judge went too far. Two years would have been plenty, 5 would have been harsh, 10 is stupid.

[StSanta]

Since this is turning into a general debate about how to handle young criminals, it might be best to see it from the grander point of view.

The purpose of punishment s two fold: one is a sense of justice, and the other purpose is for the greater good of society.

For me, what is effective in the latter regard is as important as the punishment bit.

The US got overcrowded prisons and a crime rate that is relative high. The general approach here is to sentence people to jail rather than different forms for rehabilitation.

If rehabilitation proves to save society money and lower crime rate, I'll go for it even if it means some twirp only gets two years where he might have gotten four.

Great efforts are being made here to rehabilitate criminals - sometimes it's very obvious that the effort is wasted. Still, the program has had some success. Some kids simply need a helping hand to get out of the path they've started on - for others it's too late.

But it'd be downright stupid NOT to reach out to the ones you can touch.

Of course this has to be balanced with the risk the dude in question is posing to society - if it's likely that innocents will risk dying because rehabilitation is choosen, obviously this shouldn't be tried.

10 years for that toejame. Hell, I'd be in prison for life if those were the standards here.

And dinnae I just turn out super ok? Pink leather studded g-string, fascination for fascist hardware....couldn't be more normal.

[Eagler]

nope

as pointed out in the above posts and the article, this punk arse is headed for a life a crime

skip the countless arrests/court time and lock him up for good now