Graphics

[brendo]

SWultfie, how are you in a position to determine if the AH team is overworked or not? We have no idea about anyones workload. I dont either. Workloads are up to the Hitech Creations team, not any players.

This topic is the same as anyother feature request. Just a request and discussion on the 'state of play'. We are just discussing our thoughts and ideas!

I have made one other observation.

The level of quality of the textures for the newly released aircraft is increasing dramatically. When I look at aircraft textures such as the FM2, it looks to me like the texture has been prepared in very high detail... and downsized/resized with 'smart sampling' to fit the required texture map resolution.

It is my guesstimate.... that the ART team already have high detailed textures  on hand. They probably created them in 1024x1024 or 2048x2084 or similar.

It MAY be that hires-textures could possibly be implemented with less trouble than thought. (ART wise... not programming task wise... I watched my brother program a 3D graphics engine with kinematics from scratch a while back.... you cant just click your fingers ).

[J_A_B]

I still wish HTC would devote one version entirely to sprucing up the older graphics (like the F4U).  As noted above, there's a lot of disparity between new stuff like the P-40 and stuff that's been around since beta.

J_A_B

[troxel]

I dunno gents.  Eye candy is nice and everything, but when I have 2 La-7s chasing me all over hell's half acre, I really don't notice that I can't distinguish the rivets on my wing from the panel lines.  I think that playability has much more weight than the graphics, and given that texture sizes would have to increase by a factor of 4 or so to get to the levels that are represented in the WW2 Fighters screenshot, there would be a hit in framerate that would quickly make formation flying and furballs a jittery mess unless you were running something in the neighborhood of a 2 gig CPU with a GF4 Ti DDR.  IMHO, the smoothness of flight and the gameplay are better places to spend computer resources as well as development resources.  Anyway, when I buy a game that has really dazzling graphics, it is cool for the first few hours, but when I get into it, I start realizing that the FM is cheezy, or the campaign model is poor, etc..  At that point I put the manual back on the shelf, and log on to AH to get shot down over and over again..

If you remember, when WB 1.11r2 was released, it was in an era of 1st generation 3d accelerator cards and software based graphics.  Many boxed games had for years been shipping with textured skins, yet WB only had shaded polygons and no textures.  It wasn't because the folks at WB didn't care about textures, but because the requirements to run the additional graphics would make framerates dip to unacceptable levels for many of their customers, and WB 1.11r2 produced framerates over 25 FPS on a modest system, when many of the boxed games would give you 12-15 FPS if you were lucky.

I am not suggesting that HTC should not be planning on upgrading their graphics engine, but that their time could be better spent right now on improving gameplay factors (particularly with the strategic model now that we have the improved bombing system that favors carpet bombing).

IMHO, small piecemeal graphics upgrades here and there would be a waste of time, since that time would end up being sunken development hours that would be lost when the graphics engine was fully overhauled in the future.

Just my 2¢ worth....

[Xjazz]

FM, avionics, gameplay over "Nice to have eye candy" bs.

[Duedel]

better eye candy = more immersion = better game play

BUT why not make better eye candy optional.
The only real problem I see is the increased ammount of data. So maybe have an ah basic and downloadable additional features (like huge textures, cockpits...) but this i guess would be to much work to implement.

[Apar]

but this i guess would be to much work to implement.

Not necessarily, if the players could design the plane textures/skins and put them up for download on Hitech side (like the terrains, like the sounds).

I realise that it is prolly too much workload to do a complete overhaul of all plane skins for HT, especially if it is not viable to increase the staff. It would be at the expense of other development plans for AH.

I also respect the decision to keep the basic download file (AH.exe) small and to keep the game compatible with as much hardware as possible.

Nevertheless I agree with allot of plp that the AH graphics is wearing out and that it does require an overhaul.

IMHO all the more reason to offer the community options (extra downloadable skins, skin develop tools, incorporate higher levels of resolution in the game by an addon AH.exe file that accomodates high res skins and terrain). Players can than choose themself what resolution they want to run and choose for the required downloads.

[Eagler]

Originally posted by Hristo

Hristo
What mode are you setup in IL2? What vid card? My cockpit isn't near as clear as yours..

tia

[Vermillion]

More detail = lower fps and a much larger download

Frenchy, you say you don't notice a hit in fps between the two games, but how many visible aircraft are there in your comparison? Go do a comparison with 40 visible aircraft (an average to large furball in AH) and see what the results are.

Just a personal guess from playing with 3D graphics lately, but I think the AH textures are 256x256 pixels, where the ones you posted were either 1024x1024  or most likely even larger.  Maybe even 2048x2048 (probably not this large, but maybe).  In terms of download thats between 4 and 64 times larger in file size for each plane.  Multiply that by how many planes in AH, and you start to see how much bigger that makes the game to DL.

Same with polys, both internally in the cockpit and externally.  I'm sure that with the AH engine you can increase the number of polys to quite large numbers.  While this doesn't increase file sizes much, it directly hits frame rates.  Marginal machines quickly become unuseable, and the player base shrinks appreciabley.  Remember we're talking online fights where the number of visible aircraft can be quite large.  For example a 40 plane furball is not even outrageous.  

Right now HTC wants to keep the potential player base large, so they keep the minimum machine specs low, but this keeps the graphics to a lower level than what we can see in box games.  Its a give or take situation, you can't have it both ways.

And lastly, while the P-47 you posted was quite pretty in most respects, personally I think its somewhat overdone.  The panel lines look like the grand canyon. Just my opinon though.

[AKSWulfe]

Why? Because it starts to be more and more obvious for me that the sim graphics are aging. I'm making my voice eard that it starts to darken my gaming experience.

Make your voice heard once, after that it gets repetitive and a bit annoying.

You can act as ofended as you wish SW, but I politly stated my thoughts and even tried to propose solutions to help wait the "no soup for you 1 year". As far as I'm concerned, having nicer looking planes is more important than flying a P47M. It has nothing to do with my beliefs on the great effort that HTC is putting in their baby.

I'm not offended, I am telling you exactly why they aren't doing two seperate graphics packs at once, and why they aren't going to do a graphics enhancement until GF2s become the standard.

SWultfie, how are you in a position to determine if the AH team is overworked or not? We have no idea about anyones workload. I dont either. Workloads are up to the Hitech Creations team, not any players.

Well, you can kind of pick up the idea that they are overworked when they rarely post, rarely fly, and have to push back the release a couple of days/weeks because of something.

It's not exactly rocket science here, every other game developer has a team 2x+ the size of HTC... and they take far longer, and do much less in their updates compared to HTC.

I'd say they are overworked, and will get to updating the graphics when they feel the time is right. HiTech made it clear a while back that they won't do a graphics overhaul until GF2s are standard. To get a bunch of new features into the graphics engine, you need to do a graphics engine overhaul.. so I think that's pretty self-explanatory.



The whole idea of two seperate graphics packs makes it apparent to me that not many of you understand the work load involved in producing two seperate engines, with two seperate sets of textures.

And it's very unlikely any of the planes in AH started off as 1024x1024 textures.. if they did, them lines on that P47 wing wouldn't look anything like that.

So basically, HiTech said he was going to wait to do a graphics overhaul until GF2s are the standard in everyone's computers.

Sit back, relax and wait like everyone else... and tell me, in all of the screenshots in this thread... how many of those games show a gameworld like AH? Neither of them do.
-SW

[jbroey3]

Hey Swulf, I dont know what planet you live on,...

but I suggest taking a walk into any known computer store, best buy/comp usa/bj's/electronic boutique/ anything for that matter.

You'll soon find out that the STANDARD is ABOVE an already AGED Geforce 2. Geforce 3's are essentially the lowest you will see being sold aside from the equal to or better ATI line of products.

If you or anyone else still using a TNT/or voodoo Series card... well.. im sorry my friend but it is YOU who is BEHIND in the times of computer hardware standardization.

Tell me Mr. Wulf, How many Dell products/Compaq products/HP prodcuts.. are being sold today with TNT/Voodoo cards? or Even the already aging Geforce II ??

The Standard of  Todays Graphic Hardware IS... a GeForce 3 line and even the GF4mx....    

Aces High's Graphics engine is outdated, (not speaking of the aircraft models)and its common knowledge.  Warbirds 3 has a higher level of detail  and its a mmog, Il2 has set the NEW standard for flight sims in General.

Loc-On is next to pave the way.

Oh and as far as your Comment about companies being able to support their product and improve it reguarly, maybe you should stop by a place called. http://www.il2sturmovik.com Great team there, and always adding to a new benchmark in flight sim technology.

[AKSWulfe]

Okay smart ass, go to every Aces High player's house and look inside their computer.

Write it down, tally it up, and find out what the majority of players are using as their video card.

Until then, it don't matter one damn bit what's on the shelf.. cuz it ain't it no one's computer.
-SW

[AKSWulfe]

As for Il2, the team is atleast 4x the size of HTC... and they turn out updates at roughly the same speed, but with less than half of what HTC includes.

I own Il2, I know.

Il2 looks nice, but it doesn't simulate jack above 3500meters. Atmospheric conditions? What? No, all planes receive the same degredation above 3500meters, unlike Aces High.

And at that alt, the terrain distance is far, far shorter than here in AH.

Can't play with more than 32 players either, and it rarely reaches that many... usually only about 16.

Il2 set the standard for boxed games... it didn't do anything to MMP games.
-SW

[J_A_B]

"Tell me Mr. Wulf, How many Dell products/Compaq products/HP prodcuts.. are being sold today with TNT/Voodoo cards? or Even the already aging Geforce II ??

The Standard of Todays Graphic Hardware IS... a GeForce 3 line and even the GF4mx.... "


You'd be surprised.   Just a couple months ago when I bought my new computer (I shopped around a lot), most of the systems for sale at places like CompUSA, BestBuy, etc, had TnT2's as their graphics cards.

I felt almost shocked to see an $1800 dollar computer, 2.0 gig 80 MB+ HD.....then it has a POS graphics card.

Modern graphics cards like the GeForce 3 and 4 are only "standard" in custom-built gaming or graphic systems, NOT in mass-market computers.

J_A_B

[muckmaw]

If the HTC crew is overworked, why not hire more people?

I have no idea what their balance sheet looks like, but I'd be willing to fork over another $5.00 a month for a Graphics Overhaul, or another innovation.

$5.00 a month X 3000 subscribers X 12 months=$180,000 a year. That would more than pay for 2-4 more staffers.

As for whats in everyone's computer, here's a thread that will give you a cross section:

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61673

Out of 62 reponses (granted a small sampling, but a sampling none the less)

GeForce II: 25  40%
GeForce IV: 13  20%
GeForce III: 13 20%
ATI Radeon: 3  4.8%
Voodoo 5: 2  3.2%
Unknown: 7 11.2%

As you can see, 80% of the sample is using GeForce II or better.

I would consider the Geforce 2+ Standard at this point.

[AKSWulfe]

Muck, do you hire on more people "just for the helluva it" where you work?

They are overworked in the sense that they do a LOT more with a much SMALLER team than any other development team out there. They spend most of their time building stuff for the game. Besides that, HiTech said from the getgo he wants his team to remain small. Needlessly hiring people just for a temporary upgrade may not be something he wants to do. This isn't his first time building a computer game, he did WarBirds afterall.

You may be willing to fork over $5 so HTC can hire 2 more people, but they specifically lowered the cost of the game to attract more people.

In other words, you are the exception.. the majority of the playerbase would most likely leave if it went to 20$. Just because you will do it, doesn't mean everyone else will or can.

As for the sampling... that's completely worthless. HiTech did do a poll in game a while ago using that neato pop-up window for what kind of graphics card people use. That was a long time ago.

Just a month or 2 ago HiTech said he was waiting to do a graphics overhaul for when GF2s were standard in people's machines.

I would say that the results of his poll were vastly different than that of the 62 people sampling.

I wouldn't consider anything standard until you have a poll representative of the majority of AH players... which 62 is not even close.

Then on top of all that, the CPU speed matters just as much. If the majority of players have a GF2... but are still around 600/700Mhz... well, the graphics enhancement won't be that stunning, and in the end, won't be worth it.
-SW