Author Topic: Graphics (Read 1634 times)

Willi Winzig · « **Reply #60 on:** September 04, 2002, 01:16:08 PM »

HT does it quite right.

Work progressively on issues that don't interfere with user hardware setup.
Work conservatively on issues that interfere with user hardware setup.

wnz
(c:

Creamo · « **Reply #61 on:** September 04, 2002, 01:27:54 PM »

Willi is wise.

However, time to think Christmas 2002, it's a good software benchmark.

Certainly a overhaul in pending.

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #62 on:** September 04, 2002, 01:38:46 PM »

muckmaw · « **Reply #63 on:** September 04, 2002, 01:43:45 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKSWulfe
They are overworked in the sense that they do a LOT more with a much SMALLER team than any other development team out there. They spend most of their time building stuff for the game.

What would you like them to do with most of their time? This is their business. This is what they are paid to do. If they are doing so well, but are overworked as a small team, imagine the possibilities if they expanded their business

You may be willing to fork over $5 so HTC can hire 2 more people, but they specifically lowered the cost of the game to attract more people.

In other words, you are the exception.. the majority of the playerbase would most likely leave if it went to 20$. Just because you will do it, doesn't mean everyone else will or can.

So in one sentence you're saying HTC is doing a great job, and you are obviously a fan of AH, but in the next, your saying the bulk of the player base would defect for 16 cents a day. Which is it? They pulled in a larger player base by dropping their price. They grabbed a larger market share when AW went under. Now you've got your captive audience. You've got your AH junkies. Business sense tells you to raise the price a marginal amount, and reinvest in your business

As for the sampling... that's completely worthless. HiTech did do a poll in game a while ago using that neato pop-up window for what kind of graphics card people use. That was a long time ago.

When was the last time you saw a pop-up? Do you know the results of this sampling? I know what my results are. If you can show me HTC's numbers, then the sampling is completely worthless. But because it disagrees with your argument, you dismiss it. Hardly Scientific.

Just a month or 2 ago HiTech said he was waiting to do a graphics overhaul for when GF2s were standard in people's machines.

Until I see numbers to the contrary, I submit that the GeForce 2 IS the standard at this time.

I would say that the results of his poll were vastly different than that of the 62 people sampling.

How can you say this with not a shred of data to back this position up?

Then on top of all that, the CPU speed matters just as much. If the majority of players have a GF2... but are still around 600/700Mhz... well, the graphics enhancement won't be that stunning, and in the end, won't be worth it.
-SW

I'm not going through all 62 responses again to get the CPU speeds. If you want to do it, be my guest.

BTW, Wulfe. You read faster than I type. I'm sorry, I deleted my original post while you were responding to it. So for those playing at home, they ahve no idea what you are responding to. My fault.

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #64 on:** September 04, 2002, 01:54:32 PM »

What would you like them to do with most of their time? This is their business. This is what they are paid to do. If they are doing so well, but are overworked as a small team, imagine the possibilities if they expanded their business

I would like them to continue developing and concentrate on the core of the code. Not some pretty overhaul that I don't need.

I do need better connections. I do need a more stable front end. I do need more planes. I do NOT need prettier graphics that will slow down my machine and cause me to upgrade, thus plunging more money into something that will only give me marginal satisfaction.

I can imagine the possibilities if they expanded their team. They did that at WarBirds... and wow... man the possibilities are endless!..........

If you can't catch the sarcasm, you need to find out how bad WB got fugged up because of the "Bigger is better" train of thought.

So in one sentence you're saying HTC is doing a great job, and you are obviously a fan of AH, but in the next, your saying the bulk of the player base would defect for 16 cents a day. Which is it? They pulled in a larger player base by dropping their price. They grabbed a larger market share when AW went under. Now you've got your captive audience. You've got your AH junkies. Business sense tells you to raise the price a marginal amount, and reinvest in your business

This tells me you don't understand much about business sense.

I would recommend you take a couple of college level courses in business and economics.

No matter how much someone likes a product, a price hike does not sit well with them. A price drop is like cocaine though.

When was the last time you saw a pop-up? Do you know the results of this sampling? I know what my results are. If you can show me HTC's numbers, then the sampling is completely worthless. But because it disagrees with your argument, you dismiss it. Hardly Scientific.

What? My argument is to wait until HiTech thinks it's a good time to do a graphics overhaul.. and at that point in time it will be beneficial to both him and us. Your line of argument is "I've done very little research, have a very small sampling, but from this I can conclude the majority of people playing AH have GF2s or better"

If you can't see how asinine that is, then I really can't help you.

How can you say this with not a shred of data to back this position up?

Okay, sit here and read these lines I'm about to type 7 or 8 times. Maybe then you'll understand. HiTech did a poll to find out what video cards people have. Based on the market, people upgrade either once every year, or once every 6 months. HiTech recently said he was waiting for GF2s to become the standard in people's machine. This poll was not more than 6/7 months ago. We have no new graphics engine, and no mention of one in the works.

This is my data, and from this I can easily conclude that GF2s are not the standard yet.

I'm not going through all 62 responses again to get the CPU speeds. If you want to do it, be my guest.

I wouldn't either, because 62 is not representative of anything but those 62 people. It does not even come close to the majority.

If you think this is how polls work, you should stay WAY away from any job that requires marketing and/or keeping a target audience.

but like I said, I'm not the one trying to get a new graphics engine right now. I'll wait until HiTech thinks it's beneficial to both us and him to do one. I am, however, trying to tell you the reason why it has not and is not happening right now. You choose to ignore that and rely on your miniscule "data"... fine, but remember, I'm not the one trying to prove to HiTech what the majority of users have in the machines- you all are.
-SW

LePaul · « **Reply #65 on:** September 04, 2002, 01:55:36 PM »

Allow me to interupt the mud slinging for just a moment

Some very good points.

1) Download Size. The last couple of games I've downloaded (Jedi Knight 2, Soldier of Fortune and a few others) were all over 100+ mb. If Aces High swells from 32.5 mb to close to 100mb, that's really not that uncommon a download size. Just journey around the various 3D game sites and see for yourself. I dont think the size of the download really matters. The quality of the program/game will speak for itself. If its too much to download, they can always request a CD, get it from a friend, grab it at work where there is bigger bandwidth, etc...

2) Let players tune in our as much detail as they want. Your system can't handle the big textures, detail, etc? Then tune it down (via a graphics option menu?) like most every other game out there. My sluggish P3 500 can run Jedi Knight with the default settings, but creeps to a slow death if I crank in the details, hi res, etc. I think a great balance on the graphics issue is let those that have the power to do so crank it in. Right now, they can't, we're held back by the slower guys to an extent. Just give the player the power to guage and setup their system for what they like.

The immersion of this game is a huge sell. Other games look prettier and such, but do not have the addiction this one draws. But, we've got that SVGA look

Just count me in as one that would *like* the option to crank up more detail if it became available.

muckmaw · « **Reply #66 on:** September 04, 2002, 02:10:20 PM »

I agree that they need to concentrate on the Connection issue right now. I would also prefer a better start model, and better game mechanics to a graphics overhaul, but that's my personal priority. So, yes, I would agree that HTC has some issues to tackle before a graphics upgrade.

I cannot see how hiring qualified personnel is going to send AH into a tailspin like Warbirds. For every 1 company that expands and fails, there are 10 that succeed and thrive.

AS far as my business education, I have a Bachelors Degree in Business Administration from Adelphi University. Your assertion of lowering price to appease already happy customers goes completely against the business model. To put it VERY simply, you lower prices to attrach more customers during times of heavy competition. You raise prices when there is little competition, and use the proceeds to Eliminate any competition and dominate the market. HTC had a winfall when AW went under. Free customers. Come and get 'em! Now is their chance to capitalize on their dominance in their industry.

You seem to have unwavering faith in the wisdom of Hi-tech. Did you ever stop and think maybe the GeFoce II is the standard now, but Hi-tech is dealing with connectivity issues, and cannot get to a graphics upgrade? Which brings us back to the original point. If theire plate is too full, hire more qualified people before they start losing player base. You'll lose many more customers providing an inferior product then you would if you charged more for a superior product.

LePaul · « **Reply #67 on:** September 04, 2002, 02:52:26 PM »

Golly, I know friends who boast of a diploma signed by Sally Struthers

muckmaw · « **Reply #68 on:** September 04, 2002, 03:00:56 PM »

[whiney Sally Struthers Mode]

Just think, for 16 cents a day, you, yes you can make a difference!

You can help employ a hungry programmer!

You can save an unemployed dot-comer from an untimely demise!

For less than the price of a stamp, you can get help swell the ranks of HTC!

Please call the number on your screen and sponsor a Programmer today!

We'll send you a picture of the programmer you sponsored, a short biography, and a graphics engine update!

Call now, make a difference!

[/whiney Sally Struthers Mode]

LePaul · « **Reply #69 on:** September 04, 2002, 03:18:50 PM »

LOL

Good one!

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #70 on:** September 04, 2002, 03:33:06 PM »

It's not my area to dictate to HiTech what he should do, or what he needs to do. Nor is it yours. He runs his company how he sees fit, and from the getgo he has stated he wants to keep it small.

I'm not arguing he should keep it small, I'm saying he WANTS to keep it small.

So no matter what you say to me about for every one company that expands and fails, 10 succeed (although I tend to think it's the reverse or that the ratio is not nearly that high), HiTech wants to keep his company small.

As for your education, well I never asked you what you had. Although you seem to misunderstand me quite well.

I never said lower the price, I said it was like cocaine. You lower the price, and more people will flood in. At some point you hit that point where you can bring in a whole load of people to offset the lowered price and actually make more money than with the higher price. At this point is where you tend to want to stay.

The idea of then going back and highering the price is a bad one. If you think I'm wrong, again, take a look at WarBirds. I paid the extremely high price 2 years ago, I'm not about to accept it going back up to that area, *I* will leave. I dunno about anyone else, but I'd imagine a lot of other people would too because the reason they signed up for AH was the lower price and they expressed their discontent with the higher price.

Then you take a look at what you are asking of them, you want to raise the price so that for those who do not have GF2s will have to upgrade. And those who do not have processers up to snuff, will also have to upgrade.

The customers who don't mind, will do it. Those who don't, will leave.

Which comes back to the point, if it's worth it to HiTech and to us, he will do the upgrade. If it's not, the entire deal of "I want pretty graphics" is completely moot.

Did you ever stop and think maybe the GeFoce II is the standard now, but Hi-tech is dealing with connectivity issues, and cannot get to a graphics upgrade?

If you can prove to me it is the standard, I will accept that. But I'd waver a guess that it's not. This BBS is not representative of the people playing the game at all. So again, if you can offer me more than 62 people's hardware... something in the 200-300-400 range, then I can accept that as fact. Otherwise, it's a completely useless poll.

Which brings us back to the original point. If theire plate is too full, hire more qualified people before they start losing player base.

And where will they go? WBIII? FA3? WWIIOl? Maybe one of those Target products.... IF they ever get released.

You'll lose many more customers providing an inferior product then you would if you charged more for a superior product

That's not true at all, HiTech offered a superior product back when it was $24.95 to whatever else was out there on the market. It didn't actually gain a huge increase in numbers until the price drop.

As for my unwavering faith... I trust HiTech knows what he's doing. A lot better than anyone in this thread. Afterall, he's been doing it since 1993, and he's been doing it well.
-SW

midnight Target · « **Reply #71 on:** September 04, 2002, 03:57:07 PM »

Price is a funny thing.

I used to work in the mail order world. We would do price experiments often. This would entail sending out mailers to 3 groups of people with the same product at 3 different prices. The cheapest price was not always the biggest seller. In fact, often the costlier something was, the more it sold (to a point). We felt this was "perception of quality" that drove the sales.

narsus · « **Reply #72 on:** September 04, 2002, 04:06:53 PM »

I have to agree with AK here, I recall a bunch of people dropping WB when they updated their graphics in version 2 and again in 3. I am a fairly decent techy and like cool things and I have a 1 gig machine with a GF2 ultra. According to benchmarks is well under half the speed of the current crop of gadgetry.

Why do I have this equipment (which is better than most) because it plays the games I use well. Of the 3 games i play regularly (GPL, AH, Nascar 2002) only 1 was released this year. I dont play these games/sims for their graphics I play because they interest me and they have good physics, gameplay, etc.

LePaul · « **Reply #73 on:** September 04, 2002, 04:13:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by narsus
I have to agree with AK here, I recall a bunch of people dropping WB when they updated their graphics in version 2 and again in 3. I am a fairly decent techy and like cool things and I have a 1 gig machine with a GF2 ultra. According to benchmarks is well under half the speed of the current crop of gadgetry.

Why do I have this equipment (which is better than most) because it plays the games I use well. Of the 3 games i play regularly (GPL, AH, Nascar 2002) only 1 was released this year. I dont play these games/sims for their graphics I play because they interest me and they have good physics, gameplay, etc.

narsus

The argument myself and a few others are trying to point out is that if the added details are "option-able", then it pleases both sides. Those that want em can crank em in. If you do not have the system that can run the added detail, then run at the non-enabled mode, etc

I dont know if that can, or will, be done. But other games/sims/etc seem to accomodate a vast PC audience by allowing players to set the level of details, etc

that's all

BigGun · « **Reply #74 on:** September 04, 2002, 04:48:26 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKSWulfe
something in the 200-300-400 range, then I can accept that as fact. Otherwise, it's a completely useless poll.

Where do you pull these numbers from? You are saying 5-10% of the population would need to be polled in order for it to be useful. If you think you need 200-300-400 people polled to derive meaningful information from population base size of AH (guessing 5000-10000), then you don't know much about sampling sizes, statistics & polling. It is possible to derive reasonably accurate polls with less than 1% of a population.