Graphics

[Kweassa]

"Shut up and wait. Don't talk about anything, don't discuss about anything, don't complain about anything that has to do with the game itself, because HTC will take care of everything - sooner or later."[/B]

 Guess what, people begin to question "how much later?"

 It's the 21st century now. People react to the visuals of the game as much as the gameplay. The future customers pick the game they want to play/buy by its first impressions. Which means the flight sim gamers who would leave their teens behind soon won't even consider looking at AH as their game or choice if it lags behind in the graphics category much longer. How would they ever find out about this wonderful potential of AH if they don't feel attracted to it because the graphics, compared to other contenders, are lacking?

 Graphics are becoming more and more of a prerequisite for the success in games.

 We just love to think a game which boasts superior graphics would probably suck in internal game play - because we are people who enjoy a product with great gameplay but mediocre graphics.

 We comfort our troubled minds by thinking so... and the worse this sort of thinking goes, it turns into a mental masturbation like the "unquestionable faith for HTC" some people just HAVE TO EXPRESS in a perverted way.

 When there are already products which depict the same sort of WWII air combat with better graphics, guess what, its only a matter of time people come up with better game play to match the level of graphics. Don't pretend the iron rule of competition won't apply to AH because it is currently the best.

 The need for better graphics is more serious than we'd like to think.

[jbroey3]

Swulfie, It is obvious that you do not "get it".

You have already been verbally spanked by Muckmaws wisdom. You have seen a small, but very important poll, of which is also indicitive of the end users system specs but yet you continue to blabber on about what you think is not standard yet.

Oh and yes you did challenge him when you said that he should take a few "college level" classes on business, so please shut up with your ignorance.

You are only shooting your own foot.




As there are many various things that we all can say is in need for at the current moment. There is a Single facet of Aces High that is Glaringly apparent that is in need of rework.

It is obvious that the networking aspect, the multiplayer portion of Aces is top notch. It's definately time to update the graphics portion to that of Dx8 standards to match its mmog counter part.


On the Aces High Webpage itself it says that :

DX 8 compatible video card
PII 333 or better

 
Now tell me.... Who here is running a PII333 or just above still?
The Direct X 8 api isnt even the current one being used correct?
Is it not Version 7?



Geforce II's are standard now... Get over it.
A standard machine runs at at least 1GHZ now.... Get over it....

[AKSWulfe]

Originally posted by BigGun
Where do you pull these numbers from? You are saying 5-10% of the population would need to be polled in order for it to be useful. If you think you need 200-300-400 people polled to derive meaningful information from population base size of AH (guessing 5000-10000), then you don't know much about sampling sizes, statistics & polling. It is possible to derive reasonably accurate polls with less than 1% of a population.

Actually, I was thinking arena size. But you are right, the AH base size might be 5000-10000.

It would be impossible, with the multitude of gaming rigs and video cards out there to get any form of reasonable guess on who has what unless the entire population is polled. At which point, the poll is usefull.

Prediction sampling (sampling 1%) works well when you don't have a target audience but you are seeking one. When there is an established audience, it's in their best interest to derive an accurate poll that will poll everyone.

If you poll even 20% of the population, what happens if 80% of the population has a video card or card(s) that none of the 20% had?


Kweassa- "Graphics are becoming more and more of a prerequisite for the success in games."

Show me one MMP game that hinged it's success on graphics?

I can show you one that is failing, despite the new graphics.

Deez- you are truly an idiot. I didn't get spanked by anyone's "wisdom", especially when a poll that is supposed to be representative of the majority of AH customers only represents a MINUTE portion of the customers.

Wouldn't it be funny, if you polled the entire customer base and found out that GF2s or better were in the minority category? Or that PII500s were the average system?

Boy, I would laugh my bellybutton off.

I never asked him what his degree was, I told him he should take some college level classes on business and marketing. I still stand by that, because it certainly has changed with the internet age.

Anyway, that poll is not important when it only has 62 people and the customer base could well be 10x that size... it's not representative and thusly a useless poll.

But I wouldn't expect you to know that, hell you still think Xplane simulates flight leaps and bounds beyond AH... yet it essentially derives the same output as AH.

Geforce II's are standard now... Get over it.
A standard machine runs at at least 1GHZ now.... Get over it...

On the shelf and in people's homes are two entirely different things. Get over it.
-SW

[LePaul]

I dunno AKswulfwe

Its getting painful to read these posts anymore.  Everyone is pretty much in agreement that updated/new graphics is needed.  Show someone that has been playing Falcon 4, IL2, MS Flight Combat sim...then toss them in front of Aces High.  We're the lowest on the graphics "wowee" scale, but if they give the game a chance, the immersion and online play builds the addiction

You wanted examples of games whose success pended on the graphics?

go to your local electronics boutique, ask a clerk and prepare to be laughed at.

they all require good graphics.  what sells them is those screenshots on the back of the box.  I worked for EB for 5 years, part time.  The screen shots make it sell.

[AKSWulfe]

I said MMP. That means Massively MultiPlayer.

As in, more than any boxed game has done, with Red Baron 3D being the exception- but it took them over a year after they released the initial game to produce a server based (60+) game.

All boxed games revolve around graphics. That's their selling point.

And for "everyone", you mean the 5 or 6 guys in this thread, right?


And where did I disagree a graphics overhaul is needed? I stated, repeatedly- you can look it up for yourself, that now is not the time. 3 months, 6 months, only HT knows. He knows when it is feasible for him to do it and when it will be beneficial to the customers.

But to make 2 seperate graphics packs, you have effectively extended every patches release date between 1 month to 6 months depending how big the update is, and how many new planes, GVs, anything require new artwork, is added.

I'm not opposed to a graphics overhaul, I have been repeatedly stating the reasons why it hasn't been done and isn't currently being done.
-SW

[ramzey]

Nicer graphics sound preatty cool, but:

-somone ask HiTech about future plans for advence graphics?
id like to listen  official voice. It is possible , i think yes. If HTC make better graphic then wb2.7X, im sure cane do better then il2 of wb3. I think programming are not the point.
Hardware for hosting computer are problem, now we have ~ 450 ppls online in prime time. Thats mean huge power of host and strong connection. Dunno, HTC is ready for pay so much money for all new stuff this year?.  Is he survive on market if  give us better graphics? That cost lots of money, which one not back in a month or 2. If he overinvestment what we do? go to wb3? no way!!!!

- its hard times for all ppl on the world with money. I know not for all but for most yes. I count ubgrade my system in next year, mby. But no see any chance  by next year. Strategy of HTC is right for me.

So, im ask HiTech, how looks future in graphics and game weight for next 12 monts? We should know that .If HTC plans make som huge changes we must be ready and buy new hardware:)
And take money for that can make som time;)

with respect
ramzey

[Karnak]

Having worked in software QA (where I need to know what the typical user system is) I have to say that SW has it right.

The standard is not what is in stores right now.  Nobody who wants to make money on a product writes software that requires the computers that are in the stores now to run.  They write software for the computers that have had time to enter the marketplace via being purchased in quantity.  In other words they write software for hardware that is about two years behind the stuff that is in the stores now.


About your poll.  Any self motivated poll on the internet is complete BS.  The results are greatly distorted by the reason people answer them.  Bragging, in the case of the "What video card do you have" poll, plays a large part.  Who wants to say they have a TNT1?  I've got a GeForce4 4600, but i probably wouldn't answer if I had a TNT1.


All the self motivated internet polls I saw about the 2000 Presidential race had Bush beating Gore by 10-15%, even on CNN.com.  After looking at the non-internet world I said, in the O Club on this board, that I thought it was going to be within 1%, but I didn't know who would win.  I was laughed at.

Guess who was right.

[A4c7i9d]

Graphics are peripheral in the MMOG genre.  If you wan't proof look at the top MMOG in the world.  Not Everquest.  Lineage: The Blood Pledge has the most subscribers.  The graphics in that game, at least at the time I played it, were so dated that I actually laughed the first time I logged in, after downloading over 100mb.  A MMOG needs to be stable, lag free, and fun.  Graphics can help make a game more immersive but its not a major part of what makes a game good.

If HTC increases the hardware requirements, they will most certainly lose customers.  If they keep producing a quality product instead of smoke and mirrors they only stand to gain because there isn't going to be anything to challenge them any time soon.  Yes, better graphics will attract more people in the short term, but it won't keep them from leaving to play WW2OL 1.POS when it raises the graphical ante.  Playability, balance, and community are much better investments than pretty pictures.  I say keep the graphics to a minimum and put the resources into the actual game.  Just my $15.00.

[Apar]

SWulfe, muckmaw, Joey,

You think you speak for the majority of the AH players, I find that funny. Can you all read minds??

Many AH players don't even read this BBS.

I guess the only way to find out if AH players want:

- improved graphics
and to accomodate this:
- are willing to pay more for the game
- are willing to upgrade their system to GF2 +
- are willing to download large add-ons
- are willing to wait for other upgrades until graphics is improved

is for HT to inquire through online questionaire (as done before on many other issues, they wanted the communittees input on).

I for one agree with all above questions

[gatt]

Its really hard to believe that GF2 and 1GHz CPU is not the standard, the average system that is. It means that there are so many TNT-GF1 around ... ? And again, I dont think that graphics is the main issue, nor the d/l size. Take a look at how many players FA and IL-2 have and at the size of their d/l. Development pace, crew size, strategic choice ... these are arguments I can agree with. But not for a long time.

[fullback]

I trust we'd all love to have photo-realistic graphics on 50" plasma screens. But I can appreciate that coding for a low common denominator in graphic boards is a reasonable business decision.

This is a niche business with a limited universe of prospective customers.

A perfect balance of sparkling graphics, captivating game play, connection stability for a myriad of global subscribers in a mmp environment isn't easy.

I expect the graphics will improve when time and resources allow. I'm sure many of you have waited 6 months or more to upgrade to a new graphics board, or complete PC, because you wanted to jump 2 generations instead of one. It's no different for the developer than it is for the consumer.

If I had hitech's ear for 2 minutes, I'd say:

1.  Stay small but get ready, because one competitor's parent company may be ready to sell out, or off load by April next year.

2.  Think a little more globally i.e. market to Japan.  1/2 the population of US with better connectivity, credit cards and an active aviation game market. But interface, help file, website and download site have to be in Japanese. The small number of Japanese players here is just the tip of the iceberg. (I have a 100Mbps fiber optic connection, but most Japanese have 1.5-8Mbps DSL. No 56k dial-ups and US$15 is pocket change.)

3.  Marketing, connectivity, user interface (the single, most important factor for converting a trial into a subscriber), game attributes and graphics.

4.  And I'm having a blast with AH.

[SFRT - Frenchy]

A lot of guys argue but didn't took the time to read messages ahead. We advocate better graphics as an option for those who can afford them .....

............. so all the messages "it slows FR down" and "they will loose players" are non relevant as a discussion in this topic

[fats]

Karnak,

Having worked at < unnamed > game company, the graphics engine and the graphics data files them selves were definetly done for computers and graphics cards not  yet available to the consumers. In fact < unnamed > CPU and graphics card manufacturers pushed to make it as CPU/GPU intensive as possible so they could sell their upcoming top of the line products.

Saying software ( games in this case ) are written for something avg. at the time of release might not hold true in all cases. I bet iD's Doom III won't run well with an avg. system at the time of its release either.


// fats

[A4c7i9d]

A lot of guys argue but didn't took the time to read messages ahead. We advocate better graphics as an option for those who can afford them .....

............. so all the messages "it slows FR down" and "they will loose players" are non relevant as a discussion in this topic  

It's very relevant.  From what I know, an up to date graphics engine WOULD raise sytem requirements no matter how many options you turned off.  And you can't have people playing with different versions of the game.  Then X number of customers would stop paying $15 a month because their machine couldn't run it.  So now HTC has spent money on new graphics and shrunk their potential customer base.

About the only visual improvements I'm currently for is the continued optimization of the current engine, and updated skins if time and money allows it.  Anything more would mean, to me at least, HTC had their priorities all mixed up.  But I think all you guys were asking for in the first place was better plane skins lol.  Besides, lower system requirements mean more potential opponents.

Pretty pictures are nice, but I would rather have better gameplay.

[SFRT - Frenchy]

Some can play in 640x... or 800x600 or 1200 x ..., can't they?
Isn't it possible to have the same thing for your plane texture/colors?