Author Topic: Will Aces High have a padlock view  (Read 4231 times)

Offline Falcon

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 178
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 1999, 07:06:00 PM »
I read the posts about the option of padlock in AH, and I'm rather displeased by posters saying "Padlocks are crutches, learn the snap views" and etc. Sometimes I wondering if I am overacting by replying this but..

What if the user can't use the snap views? I'm not talking about the user using a 2 button stick, I'm talking about physically can't use them. I'm one of them. Please guys, think about you are saying about padlocks and such. This kind of talk is making me re-think about not leaving "brand a" sim for AH.

Thank you for listening.

Falcon <CAF>

AE71 atrox

  • Guest
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 1999, 07:52:00 PM »
I was a AW1,2 and 3 (FR) player for about 4 years and a WWII box sim player for about 8 years now.  My first experence with padlocks was with Janes WWII then SDOE and EAW.  It took a little bit of getting use to flying ACMs while locked on without the tactile feel of the plane to give cues as to what my orentation was (just a note I do fly real planes).  I dont agree with or understand those that say padlock is a cheat or crutch or your a dweeb because you use it.  Come on guys....A real pilot tracked his target by moving his head in a swivel.  Following the target then checking is suroundings then back to the target. What the heck is the problem with trying to provide that immersion?  Some say learn how to use snap views.  Okay fine, so what, does that ability make you an Ace?  No it takes a hell of a lot more for that.  Since we a faced with a very limited view of the sim world why does it make so many anti-padlockers freakout about those that want to use them.  I use it in constant alternation with snapviews.  I win some and lose some, but I can tell you the losses have come because an E disavantage for the most part and others because some are just plan better than me in ACM not because I had to little SA.  Believe me I can tell when I'm screwed pretty damn quick and since its just a game I engage because I'd rather "die" fighting than run.  The times I win general result because I had E advantage or I was better at AMC.  Again padlock helps me feel more like Im in a cockpit rather than setting in a chair in my den looking at a monitor.  it doesn't make me better or worst.  IMO.

Gunner_CAF

  • Guest
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 1999, 09:39:00 PM »
I would like to see padlock.  I am not asking to take away my snap views.  I have 3 4-way hats devoted to views and using them is as natural to me as turning my head.  It takes both hands, one hat on the throttle and 2 hats on the stick, to operate my setup.

I don't want to see a magic SA button, but something to reduce the button presses for people like Falcon who do not have full function of all digits.  I have winged with Falcon and you would not know he was disabled unless he told you.  He is a worthy experienced opponent.

ACM and SA is not about who can slam the stick hardest and who can push buttons fastest.  That's called Quake.  Im sure most of you vets out there very seldom hit the limits of your joystick travel.  I am all for a padlock that can be locked onto an enemy and follow an enemy as long as it is in sight.  This will give no newbe dweeb an advantage over me.

Gunner
<Cactus Air Force>

Offline Sundog

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1781
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 1999, 10:11:00 PM »
I think there should be PADLOCK. I want a realisitic sim, and as such, I can padlock an aircraft when flying, so I would like the ability to do so here.

Also, I understand the fears some have of padlock. I don't want the APG-63 variety of padlock some games have had. In fact, if I was to reference any one game which had a good padlock, it would be the ill-fated `Confirmed Kill'.  I know some here flew that beta as well.  You were not able to padlock what you couldn't see. E.G.- you had to `look at it' first with the snap views, then while looking at it, you could padlock it.  I thought it was an excellent feature. Also, if you blacked out, you lost your padlock.

Speaking of blackouts, why haven't any sims (That I know of) ever modeled black outs well? Even this sim goes straight to tunnel vision then full black out.  My understanding is that you would actually `gray out' first (Is that to difficult to do in a sim? Make the colors fade to grayscale first?). Then as you held the G's you would progress into tunnel vision, then full blackout.  I was just curious as to why we don't see that.

All things considered, though, I am really enjoying this sim!

LB-HAM!!

Offline weazel

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1471
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 1999, 10:25:00 PM »
Gawd-haven`t we kicked this dead horse for long enough?WE DON`T NEED NO STEENKING PADLOCK!Get a freaking clue people,HiTech said no-what part of that don`t you understand? I can sympathize with any person who is disabled but if they have both hands disabled I can`t picture how they manage to fly anyway. Personally I think 99% of the people requesting this crap idea ARE LOOKING FOR THEIR CRUTCH they became used to in less worthy sims,jeez some of you are really lame.

------------------
}]
JG-2 "Richthofen"
 http://www.rapfire.net/~weazel/



Offline Dinger

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1705
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 1999, 06:57:00 AM »
 
Quote
The planet earth is indeed round. Think about how long that concept was HEE-HAW'd, by the righteous, only to be proved foolish beyond believe.
Minotaur, I already razzed Stiglr for holding this same belief.  Now you espouse it.
With very few exceptions (most of which are currently living), no halfway educated person in the last 2000 years has believed the earth is anything but more or less spherical (and not simply round like a pizza).  Similarly, the idea of padlock view is silly.
The game works this way: it presents to the player as much of the sense data as possible, and the player executes a number of inputs that should represent as closely as possible basic bodily movements.  Where the mechanical aspect is, for gameplay reasons, too complex, it has been simplified.
Moving your head is not that hard. The problem with yer padlock is that,
A. It hinders the development of good SA.  By automatic your head, it can disorient you.
B. It hampers reasonable ACM.  Those fancy evasive moves won't work as well.  Try a hartmann maneuver? Why? The bad guy will just keep tracking you.  On the other side, it really encourages yank and bankin'.  Line up your head with the stick, and pull.  Moreover, much of your "seat of the pants" feel for the plane is going to be based on how the horizon is moving with respect to the plane.  This feel gets lost once the plane and the horizon are moving relative to another plane.
C. As kier points out, it's got limited utility.  If you get good, you'll want to run your own views anyway.
D. Programming "to do it right" would be a tremendous expense of resources.  Obviously, you can't have it automatically acquire enemies, or you'd castrate a major part of this game.  What are you going to do, force a mouseclick on the icon? Try that in a dogfight. Make it lock on whatever's in the crosshairs? By then you've already found your solution.  And then turning it off when it's obstructed.How long do you wait?

So, it's a crutch that develops poor habits, has limited usefulness and poses programming challenges.  Using it is as ludicrous as claiming that Columbus went out to prove the world was spherical.

Offline jmccaul

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 1999, 07:48:00 AM »
I wouldn't use the padlock, i just don't like the sensation of trying to fly your plane round so the padlock points forward (i can't fly on the edge of the flight envolope and get the best out my plane without glancing at the instruments)
 On the other hand i have no problem with people who perfer it but as i don't use i would hate to think HTC's are wasting time (from my PoV) putting it in the game.

chisel

  • Guest
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 1999, 10:39:00 AM »


A few people have talked about a padlock with glance mode. IMO after you glance shouldnt you have to reaquire the target? Thats where I see a cheat.

And yes in real life we have a wider FOV but sometimes things move so fast it only takes a split second to lose track.

If it could be done where after a six glance the padlock moves your head back to where it was  no matter where the bogey is but you need to search a bit for the target. Say, with the mouse?

I like Snap views myself, padlock gets me killed!

------------------
Jumpin Jesus on a pogo stick! Everybody knows a burrow owl... lives... in a hole... in the ground!

Offline Fester'

  • Parolee
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 336
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 1999, 12:17:00 PM »
>>I can sympathize with any person who is disabled but if they have both hands disabled I can`t picture how they manage to fly anyway<<

Well, being that I helped to customize a stick for someone with a significant disability i "CAN" see how they fly, and fly well enough so that you wouldnt notice the handicap if in a fight with them.

Mastery of the snap views is absolutely essential to SA which is essential to survival.

That said, I honestly dont see how a padlock provides an advantage to the average person, if anything its a liability.  But to those that are new, or are unable to use the snap views I ask what harm does it do to "you?"

Are our egos so great that we cant handle getting shot down by someone who's doing things a little differently.

Personally, I wouldnt use a padlock if it was incorporated, I'm comfortable with snap views.  But Im not going to begrudge someone their wishes simply because I think "My" way is better.  Its pretty childish really...

>>jeez some of you are really lame<<

Yep, I guess we just aint as cool you weaz  

Fester, out

Offline weazel

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1471
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #39 on: November 13, 1999, 12:40:00 PM »
 
Quote
I honestly dont see how a padlock provides an advantage to the average person

Answer:
Quote
It hampers reasonable ACM. Those fancy evasive moves won't work as well. Try a hartmann maneuver? Why? The bad guy will just keep tracking you. On the other side, it really encourages yank and bankin'.
I`m not trying to be cool,far from it-I`m a hothead and it just pisses me off to see the continual whining for this crutch. You whiners need to learn to anticipate angles/position of the enemy,counter it in a correct manner and then you wont need this crap because the enemy will be in your gunsite!


------------------
}]
JG-2 "Richthofen"
 http://www.rapfire.net/~weazel/



Offline Minotaur

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 130
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #40 on: November 13, 1999, 01:26:00 PM »
Weazel;

I have not noticed any whining from the pro-padlock crowd.  Geneally, opinions are expressed in logical fashion.  It is some fear generated in this discussion that creates whining in the anti-padlock crowd.  

You are correct, padlock is a non-issue for AH.  This is simply a discussion for forum only.  No one is really thinking it will exist in this game, this was stated very early in the thread.  At least I am not.  But exploring the pro's and con's of padlock is interesting.  

My amusement and question is, "WHAT IS THE FEAR" that creates this volatile and often HOSTILE reaction?

Generally this is my opinion of the whole issue.

Quote:  When I look at something, I look right at it. I turn my head and move both my eyeballs. Whatever it is, it is smack dab in the middle of my vision. I don't look at half of it or turn my head and strain my eyes so that it is the left quarter of my vision.

AH people are comfortable with the idea of simulated flight, but many seem very uncomfortable with the idea of simulated human vision.

Give me a Pan View System, that is easy to use while I have all my phanlanges connected to my flight equipment, and I will never have another thought along the Padlock View lines.  :End Quote

FYI...

Quote:  I`m not trying to be cool,far from it-I`m a hothead and it just pisses me off to see the continual whining for this crutch. You whiners need to learn to anticipate angles/position of the enemy,counter it in a correct manner and then you wont need this crap because the enemy will be in your gunsite!  :End Quote

I consider this whining.

Mino

Offline Minotaur

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 130
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #41 on: November 13, 1999, 02:00:00 PM »
Dinger;

Should Stilg be offended by my post I will promptly apologize, please have him let me know.  It is not my intention to be abusive.

I agree with your post 99%, but maybe you and I have one mis-understanding in concept.

I do NOT think pilots stare out their side windows, with their eyes glued to a piont in space (or a target) while performing intricate flight manuvers.  

I believe pilots glance at this target while flying their intricate manuvers, glancing at cockpit intruments, the horizon and many other cues and then re-acquiring their target almost instantly to locate its position and its relation to their own position.  This re-acquiring process is based on expected location in relation to last visual contact.  The human brain is very good at this sort of thing.

Example:
You are playing center outfield for baseball.  The batter hits a high looper to left center.  You have played up and must run a long distance to catch the ball.  

You visually acquire the ball coming off the bat --> You brain computes the vector for intercept  -->  You take off running to that intercept piont, you are NOT looking at the ball while running -->  You re-acquire the ball just before in impacts the ground and make a diving catch.

You did this all with no thought, as to which snap view you must use.

I believe that when pilots (human animals) look at anything it is automatically centered right in the center of their vision, and that they can lose sight and re-acquire it rapidly.

I DO NOT believe padlock is a crutch. I believe Padlock SIMPLY simulates human vision and the human brains abitilty to compute space relation.

Mino

 

Offline Falcon

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 178
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #42 on: November 13, 1999, 02:13:00 PM »
Ya know, guys like Weasel I run into in my entire life. Everytime they see me they think "He's retarded" or "He can't do this or that so why bother"

For your info mr weasel, you don't know me ok, so don't judge me or my flying ability. I have been flying sims since the wire graphic oringal F-15 Strike Eagle and been flying W/O Padlock until Falcon 3.0 came along. The view really helped me and my skill soared beyond belief.

If HTC says no padlock, fine. I hope AH does well and hopefully have a bright future in Y2K. I'll just stay here to test the sim for HTC though, thats how I am.

Falcon <CAF>


Offline jmccaul

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #43 on: November 13, 1999, 02:38:00 PM »
Minatour don't generalize it is the indication of a weak mind unable to make specific,incisive arguments.
to para-phrase you

You anti-padlock guys are all unstable and unreasonable, (hence wrong)

Us pro-padlock guys are very reasonable and are agrument is stimulating and intelligent. (hence right)

The parts in brackets are not said but implied.

P.S. tongue is in cheek.....but only just

Offline Minotaur

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 130
Will Aces High have a padlock view
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 1999, 03:42:00 PM »
Jimcaul;

It is not my intention to let this become a "Mud-Slingling Contest".  Also consider my humor runs a little on the dry side.

IMO I was just making valid arguments and observations by responding to posts opposite of my opinions.  Reading your reply only re-affirms my opinion of how the two major groups approach this topic.

I must sometimes realize that it is human nature for people to read something they do not agree with, and then become angry.  They become angry wether it really effects them or not.

There is that side effect of my posts, that you have pointed out to me, that I did not realize.  I will change my style in the future.  

Thanks again....

I also know that the folks at HTC read this stuff.  It is my believe that Rants and Raves go less and good arguments, if only opinions, go more.

Mino

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 11-13-1999).]