Author Topic: War Could Unshackle Oil in Iraq  (Read 1592 times)

Offline Thrawn

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War Could Unshackle Oil in Iraq
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2002, 02:32:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Surely you are not suggesting that they want the area destablized?


I don't know.  That's why I asked.  I read that one article posted in AGW.  Some people seem to think so.

Offline Sikboy

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War Could Unshackle Oil in Iraq
« Reply #61 on: September 16, 2002, 03:05:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
Sikboy, do you think the US Executive Branch still wants stability in that region?


Yes, I honestly do. In fact, I believe that stability  has been our major goal in the region over the past twenty years.

It is true that we sent advisors to Iraq during the Iran Iraq war.  And some may see the Gulf war as antithetical to creating stability (and just as many would argue that it was fought to create/maintain stability).  Our exhaustive attempts to broker peace between the Isrealis and the Palestinians (unsucessfull no doubt, but honest attemps none the less) Our protection of non-combatants during the Iran Iraq war, our formal diplomatic support and military assistance for many nations, including many Arab nations as well as Israel.  

At the end of the day, we want the oil to flow and the best way for that to happen is to encourage stability in the region (oh sure, or we could just go in and take it all, and that's what some people are no doubt thinking we are up to when they look at the US going into Iraq. I dissagree)

Don't get me wrong, there have been some real lame US manuevers in the middle east. The aforementioned advisors in Iraq, while fairly benign didn't need to be there. Deposing the Mossadeq(SP)  regime in Iran was about as unamerican as anything I can think of.  But by and large, especially since the end of the cold war, I believe that the US has been trying to promote stability. And that is a big chunck of what has people pissed off at us. We have been supporting the current regimes in these countries and they are not very nice.

Sorry, this is about to ramble onto a totally different topic lol.



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You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline Kieran

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War Could Unshackle Oil in Iraq
« Reply #62 on: September 16, 2002, 03:07:31 PM »
Charon-

Not saying you're wrong, but even if you are right it is a different spin than presented by 10bears. 10bears makes it sound as though the oil companies are pulling the strings.

Offline Toad

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War Could Unshackle Oil in Iraq
« Reply #63 on: September 16, 2002, 11:32:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sikboy


... I believe that Afghanistan is almost certainly doomed to failure at this point. The number of factors standing in the way of actual democratic reform are staggaring. Of all the indicators for potential democracy Afghanistan has none that I can think of....

....But if we move without the consent of the United Nations, then I hope that we will take every effort we can to build a democratic regime that is in the best insterest of the US and Iraqi people...
-Sikboy


Two points:

Afghanistan certainly has a "tough row to hoe" , that's true. However, they still have a MUCH better chance at it now that the Taliban is gone. In short, it couldn't be any worse than it was under the Taliban. Now there is at least world wide aid and an attempt at a democratically selected government. It's a start and it's a much better chance than they had before.

If Iraq turns out as well as Japan then no worries, eh? Where do we find another MacArthur though? Time to see if Colin Powell is truly the leader everyone thinks he is? ;)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline 10Bears

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War Could Unshackle Oil in Iraq
« Reply #64 on: September 17, 2002, 01:05:48 AM »
Quote
Iraq, like the Gulf War, is about oil. Period


Quote
Not saying you're wrong, but even if you are right it is a different spin than presented by 10bears.


Sigh...

This just in..

White House Dismisses Iraqi Offer
Mon Sep 16, 8:44 PM ET
By GEORGE GEDDA, Associated Press Writer

UNITED NATIONS (AP) - The White House dismissed an Iraqi offer Monday
to let weapons inspectors return there unconditionally, calling it a
tactical move that did not change the Bush administration's desire to
remove Saddam Hussein

Offline Sikboy

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War Could Unshackle Oil in Iraq
« Reply #65 on: September 17, 2002, 07:05:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Two points:


Good points. No doubt that Arghanistan is better off without the Taliban. The best that I hope for is a nice totalitarian warlord king, who will rule with a wise fist. I don't think we should abandon them to that lot, but at the same time, I honestly have no idea how to prevent it.

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You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline Kieran

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War Could Unshackle Oil in Iraq
« Reply #66 on: September 17, 2002, 07:18:59 AM »
10bears-

There is a difference. Your stance is that the oil companies are in charge of GWB, and that greed is the only thing that motivates the presidency. The other viewpoint is that oil is vital to the American way of life (try to argue it isn't!), and therefore it is in the best interests of America to keep as much stability as possible in the Middle East.

Surely you can see the difference?

Offline Charon

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War Could Unshackle Oil in Iraq
« Reply #67 on: September 17, 2002, 09:27:27 AM »
Kieren, I certainly concede that there may very well be other motivations at work other than greed -- and likely are given the current president’s family history in this area and that of his administration advisers. Saddam Hussein is not only a threat, he’s a constant irritation to any sitting president. If you look at the Axis of Evil speech, it is possible that there was some administration “vision” of a unified world cleaning up all the trouble spots. A nice sentiment, but you have to wonder how practical it is even with the cooperation of allied nations. And, I do believe that the driving factor, what set Iraq aprat from similar villians, can only be oil.

However, greed, IMO, must still be considered as part of the "mix" of motivations. Just how much it or any other factor is the dominates the action is the debate, IMO. Primary driver or ancillary benefit? The various motivations expressed by a variety of parties seem to be:

The purely self-interest angle. The US and British multinational oil companies controlled 75% of the Iraqi oil production until the nationalization of Iraqi oil in 1972. Iraq increasingly turned to the Soviet and French governments for development funds and partnerships. Further, the Iraqi oil production infrastructure is in very sorry shape, requiring tremendous improvement efforts, which will benefit a broad range of manufacturing companies. Also, Iraqi crude is really sweet crude. It is low sulfur, which helps a US refining industry that is gearing up with substantial infrastructure upgrades to meet new gasoline and diesel low-sulfur rules in the next five years or so. The lower the sulfur in the crude, the easier it is to produce low-sulfur petroleum products like diesel and gasoline. I couldn’t imagine that this oil would prevent having to make these expensive upgrades completely. It might reduce the modifications but you would have to assume 100 percent utilization. It might lower operational costs when used compared to other crude, but I don’t know enough about cracking towers, etc. to say.

The threat to oil supplies angle. Here’s what Cheney himself has to say about Hussein, weapons of mass destruction and oil at a recent VFW speech. "… What he wants is time, and more time to husband his resources to invest in his ongoing chemical and biological weapons program, and to gain possession of nuclear weapons," Cheney said. "Armed with an arsenal of these weapons of terror and a seat atop 10 percent of the world's oil reserves, Saddam Hussein could then be expected to seek domination of the entire Middle East, take control of a great portion of the world's energy supplies, directly threaten America's friends throughout the region, and subject the United States or any other nation to nuclear blackmail."

The “proactive” benefits angle. The following is from a Boston Globe article. “Patrick Clawson, deputy director of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, contends that a pro-US Iraq would lead to a reassessment of the US-Saudi alliance, which dates to World War II but has become strained since Sept. 11 attacks, and the worsening of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. A friendly Iraq - home to the world's second-largest oil reserves - would provide an alternative to Saudi Arabia for basing US troops. Its oil reserves would make Saudi Arabia, the world's largest oil exporter, less important in setting prices, he said. In general, others contend, a US-allied Iraq could work to diminish the influence of OPEC, long dominated by Saudi Arabia, over oil supplies and prices. The reserves under Iraq are second only to Saudi Arabia.”

From a practical, non-oil perspective, it has been theorized that a friendly, democratic Iraqi regime would serve as a shining example for the region, lessen the threat to Israel, eliminate the sanctions which have been highly criticized, improve the lot of the Iraqi people, perhaps encourage secular efforts in Iran, perhaps encourage a friendlier Syria, spearhead an international crusade to end threats and irritations from the Axis of Evil(tm)… It sounds good, but as proud as I am of the US we don’t seem to have had all that much success after the Marshall plan with our nation building efforts in Latin America, the Middle East and Asia. The democracy is often democracy in name only, with little long-term viability. This is more frightening to me than any of the oil motives, because it could lead to the exact opposite of intentions. Hard to say.

Rip, I full agree that Iraq has violated UN sanctions, I am just noting that this wasn’t much of a public issue until about two weeks ago. It is a justification, a definite legality, but more of a message and justifier than the motivation. I’m sure that from this day forward we will be focusing with laser-like attention on sanctioned countries like Angola, Liberia, Rwanda, and Somalia (at least still sanctioned as of May 2002). Not to mention the countries that help violate sanctions.

Take Angola, for example. A variety of countries either formally, or through a general lack of enforcement, allowed sanction violations to occur ranging from arms and fuel exports to diamond imports. A list includes Burkina Faso, Togo, Zaire, Rwanda, Zambia, Gabon, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Morocco, Namibia, Republic of Congo, South Africa, Belgium, France, Portugal, Switzerland, and the United States. What about PRC and North Korea, which have sold arms in violation of various sanctions but managed to avoid a “formal” involvement?”

It will be interesting to see how the administration reacts to the current Iraqi offer. “Won’t take yes for an answer…” (thanks Guradian) would seem to be the case initially. Officials were stating up until the announcement that they had no doubt that Hussein would reject the US demands (and I don’t believe Hussein has accepted all the demands as of yet though). However, for a Texan, our president’s poker skills seem to be lacking. All Hussein had to do was call the bluff. The conditions made this a steep bet for Hussein, but GW has to draw another card since his UN support just took a hit. Perhaps this is the face-saving event both parties need right now. Perhaps not.

Charon

Offline Kieran

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War Could Unshackle Oil in Iraq
« Reply #68 on: September 17, 2002, 11:07:25 AM »
Well thought out, and I agree with the various postulations' merits. I happen to think the U.S. push is motivated by the combination of all the factors listed, perhaps more.

Personally, I am more concerned about our ties with Israel and the impact of conflict in the Middle East than the oil. I don't want to see WMD developed in Iraq from the standpoint that, if Iraq should ever use them, Israel would go nuke faster than you could spell "Hanukkah". That would inevitably develop into a world-wide conflict.