Is it time for Registration Fees?

[Nifty]

That's good Wotan.  I can only make two of the frames for Midway, so I'm not sure if I'm going to go for a full slot or just try to walkon as a Zeke or Val pilot.  

[Innominate]

I wouldn't be willing to pay for a scenario, a deposit though seems like a good idea to me.  Anyone not willing to fork it up, can be a walkon.

Better to have excess players than too few.

[Midnight]

I think part of the reason we see so many no-shows is because of the open registration.

For example...

Let's say a certain squad wants to fly together in an upcoming scenario. They plan for weeks before the sign up that they will all try to get in the same unit and fly together.

When the registration finally opens, only a couple of them are able to sign up right away, and the others can't make it until the next morning. During that time many other players have signed up, and the scenario squadron is now full, so the other guys (who wanted to sign up with the first two) now get stuck as reserve, or picked to fly in another unit, or even worse, assigned to the other country entirely. Maybe even a couple of them decide not to sign up at all, knowing they have virtually NO CHANCE of getting the assignment they wanted.

Furthermore, the other pilots who signed up did so just because they could, even though many of them only did it to reserve themselves so they could fly if they FELT LIKE IT that day. And let's not forget the 2-week wonders, who sign up for AH just so they can register for the scenario.

In the interum, the group of guys who originally wanted to fly together start having second thoughts. They ask the CMs for reassignment and are told no, sorry, you can't.

Finally, come game day, a couple of them just say screw it. Why fly in this scenario when I can't do what I wanted to do? I've wanted to fly this certain slot the whole time, and flying this other slot doesn't interest me.

Then you have the no-shows. The guys who don't care anyway. Even through repeated Email from their flight leader reminding them of the day and time and mission briefing. They only signed up because it was easy and they loose nothing for not showing up.

So now you have a flight leader that is HOPING his reserves show up and that they have been keeping up with the mission briefings and other pre-game Emails. What probably ends up happening is the flight leader has to spend time trying to recruit from the walk-on pool and then trying to breif his newbies. The whole mission becomes a big CF because you have a FL trying to organize a flight telling all his pilots what channels to tune, how to join up in the mission, how to get convergence set for the plane type, how to manage fuel in flight, follow the formation, etc.

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By making the first day or two of registration open to players who are willing to PAY MONEY for the privledge of choosing their country, squad, aircraft, etc. you are increasing the chances that the scenario will get a better turnout and run more smoothly. I believe this because the guys that signed up for money have invested something into it because they sincerely had an interest and wanted to participate.

Also, by giving the CMs credits on their AH accounts, it is like paying them for setting up the events and getting them running.

[Innominate]

HTC might not be able to accept any of the money, and certainly couldnt give a cent of it to the CM's.  Once CM's start getting paid by HTC, it opens up a whole new can of worms.  

You're right about the signups midnight, But I think that all charging for the scenarios would do is cause less people to show up.  Deposits would be enough to get people to show up,  without costing anything for the people who do show up.  Plus then you can still leave the option for walkons, provided there is room.

If you charge $5 for the scenario, then walkons must either pay it also, or not allowed, otherwise the people who paid kinda get screwed.  Deposits would avoid the problems.

[ramzey]

Pay for place on scenario? bulls****

Just chk who last time register and show up , this guys should be counted as  first to serve. No mather he register first or secound day.  During BoB LW have great problems with numbers, som RAF squads too.
Again lots of guys register and not show up like last 2 scenarios , Operation Huskey and BoB

Slots for guys who play last two scenarion should be sure, all the rest "First come first serve"

[Miska]

For one thing, I think even a 5$ US fee would KILL canadian (and perhaps Oz/NZ) participation.  That's a lot of money up here.  Almost 10$ CDN, and that has the same purchasing power up here as 10$ US in the states!

A deposit I might go for, but only because I am a scenario nut.  If I had a choice between paying 15$ US per month unlimited arena play OR 5$ per historical scenario, I would take the 5$ per historical scenario and would ditch arena play altogether.  But I could not justify 15$/month for arena play + 5$ per scenario.  Since I would then be unable to fly scenarios (the primary reason for an AH account), I would cancel.

[jordi]

My view - from deep inside the registration process . . .

I have seen as many WALKONS show up for 4 frames in a row as much as I have seen people who got the ride they wanted not show up at all.

In BoB the RAF flew at 100% every frames with the use of few if any walkons. Why - because they had a LARGE reserve of pilots to use to fill the open spots.

Now WHY some one who signs up and then does not show is a different question.

Part of it is normal attrition - they register and 1 month later something comes up and they can not make it no matter how good thier intentions where the month before.

For Midway we will put ALL pilots into a spot on a squadron either as a Primary pilot or a Reserve pilot. At that point those that choose NOT to participate should step up to the plate and let thier FL's know so they can be dropped from the roster and thier spots filled.

The time between the End of registartion and the start of frame #1 those pilots who do not reply to the FL's as to thier status will be put on reserve and reserve pilots will fill thier spots.

But that will not insure 100% attendence. in my LW squad for BoB inwich 6 of the 8 pilots were from my OWN Squad I still had low attendence. Those that did not show either could not make it or FORGOT what time the frame started ( My bad I should have sent out 1 MORE reminder ! Friday night before Frame #1 ) or just never showed up. By the next weekend I had 100% show up.

Not sure there is a perfect solution.

[Midnight]

There is no 'perfect' solution, but I think something with a deposit of some sort should be utilized. If not a full fee of $5.00, then a security deposit of sorts.

And remember guys, I am not saying that ALL players would have to pay to sign up. It would be an OPTION for players who REALLY, REALLY wanted to have a certain assignment in the scenario. Then, after the pay-to-register time expired, registration would open to ALL players with the first come, first serve assignments.

So you wouldn't have to pay for EVERY scenario, you could fly in every one of them for FREE. It would be at your OPTION to sign up with a fee IF and only IF you wanted to so you could get the assignment you wanted.

[Yeager]

Jordi,

Im talking strictly for myself here.  For me, re-enactments need to be very close, as close as possible to the actual happenings.

One example that comes immediately to mind: Being assigned to your flight weeks or months in advance with rank already determined and having scripted training missions on a regular basis with your flight alone and with the larger squadron and on up the chain in preparation for battle.

The sort of thing that would mimick actual life in combat.  Impossible to recreate as far as I can tell.  The contraints of games and real life are just two examples of what amounts to simply insurmountable hurdles.  Thats what I meant by my own high expectations.  Too high as I discovered years ago.

You guys are doing as great a job as anyone can expect (even myself with unrealistic realistic expectaions...whew).  Im still considering whether I should attempt to make the commitment for the Midway scenario.  Im certain it would be alot of fun regardless of my own expectations.


Anyhoo...thats all I meant

[ramzey]

Then, after the pay-to-register time expired, registration would open to ALL players with the first come, first serve assignments.

bad idea
if i buy slot and cant showup bicose my isp sux or connet inside  US make game unplayeble should i loose my money?
If frame not start in announced time are u give my money back?
If htc server crash and frame delay should HTC give my money back?
If i got CTD 1 minute after field closed should HTC give me money back bicose i pay for slot and cant fly to not broke rules of scenario?
Why ? im pay for my slot on day XX hour XX

I start thinking then pre-pay slots can give more mess and misunderstundings then u think.
For pre-pay need another one agreement HTC-PLAYER
This money are not worth this mess

What HTC managment say for us?


ramzey

[Wotan]

That's good Wotan. I can only make two of the frames for Midway, so I'm not sure if I'm going to go for a full slot or just try to walkon as a Zeke or Val pilot.

I not talking about guys who sign up and let us know they can only make a frame or 2. I had a few guys like this in BoB and they can be accomodated. Go for a full slot.

But the problem comes when registration starts getting full and a guy who would be there feels he wont make it passes on registration because he thinks he wont make it. Then you have a few folks who registered and then just dont show on game day with no reason or contact.

I like that folks can register by Frame, and I understand that some times things come up at the last moment the prevent some from making it.

But in an event like Battle of Britain and we go to game day needing 109 pilots when they were full a few days after registration opened something aint right.

You just cant make any detailed plans then have 1/3 of your slots show up at the last minute with no idea of whats going on.

I dont know if a pay per event would change this or a refundable deposite would either. Most likely it will ensure lo numbers for events.

If any fee were to be changed for events then things like ctds, lag and other bugs would need to be addressed.

[Czpetr]

Don`t agree with registration fee. I think everyone have to have the same chance as others right from the start of registration. Registration fee can split players between those who can afford it and grab the best slots first and those who cannot afford it ($ 5 is not so much money, but what if scenarios became more often? Will we have to pay for every registration? And what if I pay and then cannot make it because of some other sudden reasons?) and must take slots which left. That doesn`t seem fair as it depends on your financial situation which is not the same for everyone.
And I agree with what Ramzey has wrote.

Instead of paying fee, each FL or SL would ask pilots of his squadron for attendance confirmation a day or two before frame. If you don`t confirm - then you loose your slot and move to reserves.


I participated on similar big Midway scenario in Warbirds 1 1/2 year ago and I liked their registration process. On the registration screen you could reserve the particular slot in listed squadrons. And you saw immediately what squadrons has free slots and what pilots are registered in particulat squadrons. Don`t make the registration so vague as for BoB. This will end again with a lot of whining "why am I ordered to fly Dauntless when I registered for Wildcat!"
Make the registration clear from beginning and let as choose particular slot immediately.

czpetr

[FDutchmn]

Just my two cents on this matter...  not really positive...

for one, CMs should not be paid because this is what is saving them from all complaints possible.  Once they get paid in any form, it opens the door to responsibility and gives whiners more edge.  What is good about the scenarios and events are that it is volunteer work.  This raises the level of appreciation, at least from myself to the CMs.

secondly, administration work will be tough.  If CMs get paid, someone will have to deal with income tax, etc. from each country the CM is at.  We would also need a validated system to handle the transaction because it involves cash, from the time when a player signs up, take attendance during the scenario, re-imburse the player, etc.

As Innominate put it, we are opening a can of worms.  I would not even feel comfortable with the idea of a deposit as we would start dealing with emails upon emails saying excuses and excuses why they did not make it to the scenario and wanting their money back.

sorry, just my thoughts...

[Dowding (Work)]

The deposit idea sounds great. Perhaps all lost deposits should go to a charity of HTC's choice (an organisation not neccessarily conflict related).

[Tilt]

Unexpected no shows are a problem in scenarios........ they muck up a lot of planning...............

In the past they have also allowed walkons to participate and reserves to get bumped up...........

As Wotan said in BoB the axis were never over subscribed when it came to a frame start.

I am not in favour of a registration charge........it may even force a scenario into a massive walkon environ ment where by (a greater number) those uncertain at the time of registration decide to chance a walkon role.

CM's do not need (or to my knowledge) want paying.

I would venture to suggest that the admin attached to a deposit system would not make it worth while.

The only incentive (I have thought of) to discourage no shows is the threat of eviction from subsequent frames or at least the swopping of a registered slot with a reserve (in subsequent frames).

The real crime committed by a "no shower" is that if registered with a secure slot he/she has denied some one  else (placed in reserve) the fullest participation in a scenario.

This is presently a function of scenario registrants exceeding arena capacities.


IMO Squad leaders / flight leader in scenarios have a duty to chase their squad members to ensure that they know, before the frame, who is and who is not going to show and make what ever adjustments possible from the reserve.