Author Topic: Please please please fix the 88mm ack!  (Read 916 times)

Offline sling322

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Please please please fix the 88mm ack!
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2001, 01:32:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Nifty:
Model the ballistics for the Flak shells, and make it hurt all aircraft, even friendlies

Of course...then how long will it be until some "quakers", as some of you like to call them, show up and start blasting friendlies outta the sky just for kicks?


Offline R4M

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Please please please fix the 88mm ack!
« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2001, 01:50:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by sling322:
Of course...then how long will it be until some "quakers", as some of you like to call them, show up and start blasting friendlies outta the sky just for kicks?



Keep killshooter on for the Manned acks, but turn it off for thee automatic ones.

A manned ack will never ever hit me at 5-10 miles, because they even dont know I'm there. But automatic acks fire at anything into 15 miles of the CV, and they do it magically. So, correct that magic "instanttrack" system, and dont use killshooter for them. Let em hurt friends and enemies.

In WWII defensive CAP fighters were strongly enforced NOT to enter friendly AAA zones. Over Germany the Luftwaffe rarely (if ever) entered AAA-covered zones. Here to be into 15 mile range of a CV is simply hell.

Offline SpitLead

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Please please please fix the 88mm ack!
« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2001, 01:57:00 PM »
Happened to me just last night.  Got pinged about 4 times in 2 hours.  One ping to the engine killed it twice.  The other 2 times it was a pure pilot kill.  Boom.  I've been around CVs long enough to know NOT to stray too close for too long either and to stay below the 3000 foot umbrella.  And I was usually 3-5 miles away. Didn't matter.  It only pisses me off when it blows a particularly good sortie or I've taken 10 minutes to climb and get there and boom all of a sudden I'm sitting back in the tower. It's just too eratic which is why I just try and stay the heck away from it.  But there are always those guys who like to "hide" in the fleet ack and won't come out.

AG Sachsenberg

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Please please please fix the 88mm ack!
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2001, 01:58:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by R4M:

In WWII defensive CAP fighters were strongly enforced NOT to enter friendly AAA zones. Over Germany the Luftwaffe rarely (if ever) entered AAA-covered zones. Here to be into 15 mile range of a CV is simply hell.[/B]

Ram well if you look at the D-9 in my signature look at the wheel struts, the whole underside was painted red/white stripes for Identification to friendly AA/AAA units.  These were rare indeed that friendlies operated in flack infested environments.  

Some german night fighters did operate in the flack envelope as well 18-20k. Disregarding the orders to stay out of it, for that was were the easy kills were, allied bomber's knew that the fighters would not dare risk going into their own flak.  Read several accounts of NF's doing this.  

Flak is to accurate, especially on single engine fighters. FIx it.  

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[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 05-01-2001).]

Offline milnko

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Please please please fix the 88mm ack!
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2001, 02:23:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by sling322:
Of course...then how long will it be until some "quakers", as some of you like to call them, show up and start blasting friendlies outta the sky just for kicks?

Perhaps it's time to adopt AW's PNG (Persona Non Gratis) and leave the dweebs without ammo for 24 hours.


Offline sling322

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Please please please fix the 88mm ack!
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2001, 02:40:00 PM »
I dont know what the solution would be.  Myself, I have only been 1 ping killed by fleet flak once....and that happened last nite.  I fly through it all the time...straight and level, mild evasives, quick evasives....it doesnt matter.  I might get a hit or two and get some minor damage but that is the price I expect to pay if I fly around a CV group.  I am not saying that it doesnt happen, but I have only had it happen to me once.  

What time of day are these things happening?  Is it a situation where there are not very many targets in the air and the flak doesnt have a choice but to shoot at you because there is nobody else around?  Most of the time I have been around carriers there are a lot of other targets around for the flak to shoot at.  Last nite though it was just me and the guy I was fighting....and I got the dreaded "1 ping back to tower" flak death.

Offline R4M

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Please please please fix the 88mm ack!
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2001, 02:41:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by AG Sachsenberg:
 Ram well if you look at the D-9 in my signature look at the wheel struts, the whole underside was painted red/white stripes for Identification to friendly AA/AAA units.  These were rare indeed that friendlies operated in flack infested environments.  

Teh D9 in your sig is JV44, right?. I know those red and white stripes very well,I love that paint scheme   ...well those 190D9 were there to protect the Me262s taking off, so they were FORCED to stay near the field they were protecting. So they were FORCED To stay into their ack envelope. Their mission FORCED that, but I am sure that they didnt like to do it.

 
Quote
Some german night fighters did operate in the flack envelope as well 18-20k. Disregarding the orders to stay out of it, for that was were the easy kills were, allied bomber's knew that the fighters would not dare risk going into their own flak.  Read several accounts of NF's doing this.  

Oh, yep. I remember reading one story from Wilhem Johnen (sp?) when they operated into the friendly ack cover. They were firing recognition flares all the time to avoid being shot at.

But was anyway quite rare.

[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 05-01-2001).]

Offline Nifty

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Please please please fix the 88mm ack!
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2001, 03:38:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by sling322:
Of course...then how long will it be until some "quakers", as some of you like to call them, show up and start blasting friendlies outta the sky just for kicks?


I thought the discussion was about the AI flak, hopefully the AI wouldn't have a Quake mentality and shoot purposefully at a friendly!    As for the manual flak, killshooter would pop the shooter back in the tower with a death.  Only thing there is then you get fighters trying to purposefully pop gunners back in the tower.  I guess it comes down to whether you want to have the possibility of friendly fire flak being abused or no friendly fire flak period.

proud member of the 332nd Flying Mongrels, noses in the wind since 1997.

Offline eagl

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Please please please fix the 88mm ack!
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2001, 04:52:00 PM »
A comment on relative ack strengths -

We've been flying over Iraq for around 12 years now, and in the last 2 years Iraq has been actively trying to shoot down US and British planes.  They have sophisticated height finders and have been rebuilding their air defense networks since the gulf war ended, yet to date they haven't downed a single aircraft in over 2 years of trying.  They've been using heavy AAA traps, and the best they've done is to get an occasional fighter to jettison it's drop tanks.

This is with modern anti aircraft artillery, thousands of spotters on the ground linked electronically, both active and passive height finders, and computer flight path prediction.  And they still haven't downed a plane in over 2 years of trying.  

During Desert Storm there were AAA losses, but those tended to be due to extremely high risk missions like flying straight and level at 500 ft alt directly over heavily defended airfields.  AAA is really good at hitting planes doing that kind of thing...

In Kosovo, the USAF and other Nato countries bombed the snot out of a country with one of the most compact air defense regions in the world, much of which we weren't allowed to bomb due to the risk of non-combatant casualties.  In one incident (which earned the pilot a DFC), an F-16 went one on one against dense heavy, medium, and light AAA to bomb an active SAM site that had just shot at him and his wingman.  Again, no AAA losses even against modern AAA weapons when flying our most fragile fighter (the F-16).

I'm not sure what conclusion to draw since WWII had flak densities that haven't been seen since that war, but it does point to the idea that the long range capabilities of AH AAA is amazingly accurate and lethal.

Either that, or HT could have a glorious career programming real life gun director systems  


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