Unbelievable video...

[Kieran]

Thrawn-

I thought I was pretty clear.

I understand you are 100% against striking a child for any reason, or in any manner. Given that, the two options I provided are your only real choices. You either give in and let the little guy develop his own sense of right or wrong, or you intervene and effect your will upon him, which will still bring about the results you say you wish to avoid and you claim will be the direct result of spanking.

Yes, home discipline does have parallels in society. Your first recourse to a child is to state what you find is wrong, and express your displeasure. Next you would warn the child to stop. Next you would punish the child. Now where you go from there depends on the family, but it can end in corporal punishment. Do I really have to display the parallels directly?

You behave outside of society, you are shunned.
Next, you are arrested.
Next, you are fined or sentenced.
Next, you are sent to prison.
Next, you might be executed.

Those are the realities that exist in our society. Go ahead, tell me, which of the two courses do you take, and which one best prepares the child for our society?

I feel that I have an obligation to use whatever means I have at my disposal to prepare my child for the world. I cannot afford to throw my hands in the air and say, "Oh well, what can you do?" If that means a spanking will occasionally happen, so be it.

And when it gets right down to it, Thrawn, you ARE going to effect your will upon the child, whether you do it with a swat or use your superior physical size to place the child in time-out. So tell me, how is that fundamentally and philosophically different than a spanking?

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Kieran
So tell me, how is that fundamentally and philosophically different than a spanking?

One is violent.  The other is not.
One you physically hurt your child.  The other you don't.

What would you do if corporal punishment didn't work?

[Thrawn]

From here: http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/spanked.html

Let’s examine the argument:

"I was spanked." (fact)
"I'm fine." (opinion)
"Sometimes spanking is necessary for solving problems with kids." (false assumption)
"Since it's both necessary and harmless, it should be allowed and even encouraged." (illogical conclusion)
Now let’s consider a similar argument that seems to justify smoking:

"George Burns smoked all his life from his teenage years on." (fact)
"He was in reasonably good health all his life and lived to be 100." (fact)
"Sometimes smoking is necessary for coping with life's problems." (false assumption)
"It should be allowed and even encouraged." (illogical conclusion)

[Tumor]

Originally posted by Kieran
Tumor-

I have two daughters.

We've been down this one before. I will spank if necessary and won't apologize. And, as much as some here would paint me as a totalitarian brute because of it, it just isn't so. Spanking isn't the first recourse for me, but it is an option, and my daughters both know it.

Ahhh... I mistook your meaning (I think).  I spank too... 3 boys here.  8/12/17.  My wife never spanked... they respect her but they also ignore her whenever it's convenient (ie: chores).  When Dad speaks... kiddies listen.  And truthfully, I don't give a toejam about thier "individuality" or "right to free space" or other some such nonsense.  My household is not a democracy.  I am the supreme ruler and what I say goes, it's my way or the highway (or the rod) if necessary, ... unless of course the wife says differen't

Don't care what people think about MY choice and method to disciplin MY children how ~I~ see fit.

Tumor

[Kratzer]

I keep feeling like we've been through all of this.

This lady is a sick diddly - let's agree on that and let sleeping dogs lie.

[AKIron]

My oldest daughter has three sons, 4, 5 & 7 yrs. Their father dispensed the discipline (sometimes spanking). While my daughter would discipline she never spanked. She either couldn't or wouldn't. Now he is gone and they run all over her. I told her she is gonna have to spank. We'll see how it goes.

I applaud all those that can instill discipline in the child without corporal punishment. That is if the child is respectful of others. If  not then I have little else but contempt for you.

[Tumor]

Originally posted by Thrawn
From here: http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/spanked.html

Let’s examine the argument:

"I was spanked." (fact)
"I'm fine." (opinion)
"Sometimes spanking is necessary for solving problems with kids." (false assumption)
"Since it's both necessary and harmless, it should be allowed and even encouraged." (illogical conclusion)
Now let’s consider a similar argument that seems to justify smoking:

"George Burns smoked all his life from his teenage years on." (fact)
"He was in reasonably good health all his life and lived to be 100." (fact)
"Sometimes smoking is necessary for coping with life's problems." (false assumption)
"It should be allowed and even encouraged." (illogical conclusion)

For the record Thrawn (and anyone else).  If you have no children... your opinion is moot (to me).  I refuse to listen to any argument about raising children brought by those without.

Not saying you do, or don't... just sayin.

Anyway, indeed... my children have fear, but they do not fear ME.  They fear my actions (ie: the consequences) should they engage in activity which the KNOW is outside the boundries ~I~ set as acceptable behavior.  The severity of my actions (the consequences) vary with the severity of the offense and the age of the child.  Example.  Should my 17yr old decide NOT to report home NLT 2300hrs on weekend nights, he will certainly suffer a minimum of 3 days grounded (in which various household chores will become his responsibility).  Should I find that my 8yr old started a fight with the nieghbor kid... he's gettin a spanking.  Open hand, on a clothing covered butt and NEVER when I'm truly pissed-off.  Should my 12yr curse my wife (ie: show blatant disrespect) I would certainly leave the room until I calmed down, then evaluate whether a spanking or perhaps a certain privaledge is removed until further notice, and pick the best one.

There's a huge difference between a spanking and a beating.  Anyone who can't make that distinction shouldn't be raising children.

[Maverick]

Originally posted by Hussein
If parents aren't allowed to raise their kids through punishment, the kids will never learn to respect authority and their own limitations.

You can already see it happening all around - social services forbit anyone from slapping children when they do wrong so you see parents with screaming lunatic kids doing whatever they want.

By the time of 13 years they already stole a few cars, robbed beer from the convenient store and a criminal life is ahead.

I've seen it first hand - one of my friends was raised like that and his life ended abruptly at the age of 15 in a motorcycle accident.

He already had a wrap sheet mile long.

Husein,

I am giving  you the benefit of the doubt that this is not an attmpt at a troll.

This situation is not spanking, This is a deliberate and brutal attack on a small child. Look at the video and see what I mean. I am a proponant of spanking in a reasoned and appropriate manner. Punching, striking with full range blowsand shaking violently is neither reasoned nor appropriate.

FWIW, I have had to spank my son only once in his 16 years. Our relationship is good enough that just talking to him to express my disapointment is sufficient. How I was blessed with such a GOOD kid is beyond me but I am thankful for him.

I have put up with MANY unrully and misbehaving kids as a Police Officer and as a teacer in public schools. I have also seen some parents responses to their kids and in quite a few cases where the kid was a problem the parents did not know how to maintain control of the child. In effect the child was the "master" of the home and dictated to the parents and the parents ineffectively tried to "reason" with their offspring. The kid knew the threats were all empty and reacted accordingly.

If anyone wants an education as to how kids behave with no controls, try substitute teaching in a public school in grades from 5th through high school. You will be AMAZED at how ill behaved and frankly dangerous they are. They will actually walk up to you and tell you you cannot do anything about it as well.
When I was getting my teaching certificate I did sub in 3 school districts. Many times I realized I felt safer back on the street in uniform wearing a badge.  

[Wotan]

as a teacer in public schools.

[Thrawn]

I got a kid, Tumour.  That shouldn't matter though.  An arguement should stand on it's merits alone, not on the person that this delivering it.

I'm going to leave it at that.  We have been here before and I think we've seen each others arguements and hopefully understand them.

[Kieran]

I feel that I have an obligation to use whatever means I have at my disposal to prepare my child for the world. I cannot afford to throw my hands in the air and say, "Oh well, what can you do?" If that means a spanking will occasionally happen, so be it.

In answer to your question, Thrawn, I would do whatever it takes to regain control of the situation. I will not rule out using corporal punishment any more than I would rule out discussion. One thing is for sure, I will not allow the child to become the head of the household by refusing to comply with our wishes.

You still haven't really addressed my question though. You see, force is force, and if you use your superior size to effect the changes you desire, you are still, to use your logic, forcing your will upon the child. By the logic you have used this will only send their deviant behavior underground, out of sight.

"One is violent. The other is not.
One you physically hurt your child. The other you don't."

You're only kidding yourself. If you think the spanking I do is anything more than symbolic, or that it in some way causes physical harm, you're wrong. And if you believe that physically removing your child from a situation isn't a form of violence, try physically removing a co-worker from his or her seat in the same way you would do a child. Ridiculous extrapolation? Of course, just like the thought that says spanking a child only teaches them to fear and loathe authority.

[Hussein]

Maverick I agree on you, the womans  behaviour was criminal.

You see, there is a clear difference between a spanking or a tug of hair versus punches with fists..

The earlier is a way to inflict enough pain to the child to obey the parent (without any intent of physically harming the child), latter is a burst of rage and attempt to inflict damage.

When you raise a child there is unevitably going to be situations where you HAVE to take charge. If the child refuses to listen regardless of your threats, you have to do something don't you?

It's for the good of the child. If you let the child have his way you're damaging him way more than by teaching him he has to listen to what YOU say.

A 2-year old child isn't fit to choose what he wears to go out on a rainy day for example (yet if you raise your child the way social people want you to, the kid should be let to choose his own clothing even at this age.) The kid is not fit to tell if he can go play ball next to a heavily trafficked highway where he might run under a car.. etc.

In cases like that I damn well prefer to slap my child if he doesn't obey, instead of watching him be taken to the hospital. After a slap or two the child will learn that he must listen to you and further punishment is not necessary anymore. I was spanked only once in my life and that was because I almost got killed by escaping to a factory with an older friend. I was 4 years old. I'm 100% sure I wouldn't have understood the severity of my actions unless my mother punished me harder than ever before or after.

When a child gets punished and he knows he'll get punished every time he does something wrong it does not make him fear you. It makes him love you. He feels secure, he can concentrate on being a child and let his parents set the rules. He doesn't have to grow up as an infant and be responsible for himself. It's called being a child, folks.

Often, after my kid does something bad like breaks the computer or vcr even though he has been said he shouldn't play with them, I shout at him or even twist his hair a bit behind his ear, which is very painful but also harmless.

He often starts to cry and I feel guilt afterwards.. But then he comes over and hugs me. He's telling me he's sorry even though he can't say it in words yet. And that's when I feel that I was right in punishing him afterall.

Kids need borders. Grown ups must set the borders to the kids because they can't know what they are by themselves. Basically that's all there is to it.

[Thrawn]

In answer to your question, Thrawn, I would do whatever it takes to regain control of the situation.  I will not rule out using corporal punishment any more than I would rule out discussion. One thing is for sure, I will not allow the child to become the head of the household by refusing to comply with our wishes.

You're only kidding yourself. If you think the spanking I do is anything more than symbolic, or that it in some way causes physical harm, you're wrong.

But would you be willing to physically harm your child and cause them pain to maintain control.

You still haven't really addressed my question though. You see, force is force, and if you use your superior size to effect the changes you desire, you are still, to use your logic, forcing your will upon the child. By the logic you have used this will only send their deviant behavior underground, out of sight.

Who is physically forcing the child to do anything.  Natural consequences for thier actions.  Child is freaking out a Jimmy's house.  Fine, no playing at Jimmy's for a week.  Child didn't wear a helmet will while biking.  No access to the bike for 3 days.

However, I will use force to stop the child from hurting themselves or someone else.

[Thrawn]

"The earlier is a way to inflict enough pain to the child to obey the parent "

Hussein, you sound like your namesake.

[Elfenwolf]

Originally posted by Thrawn
"The earlier is a way to inflict enough pain to the child to obey the parent "

Hussein, you sound like your namesake.

Guys, there's better ways to get obedience out of a child than physically harming them. I never spanked my child. Instead I had a hideous looking werewolf mask and if she didn't eat her vegetables or get her room cleaned I'd put on that mask and scare the bejesus out of her. I had the best behaved three year old on the planet thanks to that mask and all I had to do was just mention I might put on the mask and she would start sobbing, begging me not to and agree to behave and wax the car like I'd asked her to do. It's not necessary to spany your kids.

BTW, did anyone see that video of Madelyne Toogood crying over losing her temper? I feel so sorry for this poor woman-I'd just like to hold her and comfort her.