Author Topic: Unbelievable video...  (Read 1649 times)

Offline Kieran

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Unbelievable video...
« Reply #60 on: September 23, 2002, 11:10:19 AM »
He ain't lyin'... :(

Offline Kratzer

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« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2002, 11:31:22 AM »
I don't think there IS a 'big picture' here.  This woman was WAY out of line.  This event shouldn't have anything to do with a discussion of corporal punishment.  Gladly, it seems that you think she was out of line too - the thing that I find amazing is that some people here are trying to equate what she did with corporal punishment and thereby defend her actions.

REGARDLESS of what I or anyone else thinks about spanking, this wasn't a swat on the but, or a slap on the hand for reaching for a hot burner.  There was no discipline here - the kid wasn't even acting up - just random violence from a mother to her child.  There's no defending that.

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #62 on: September 23, 2002, 11:34:20 AM »
Kratzer, just for clarity's sake, tell us who you think is defending the woman. Name names, please. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Offline Elfenwolf

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« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2002, 11:37:20 AM »
Do any of you guys ever get kinda kinky with your wife and let her spank you? Just curious is all.

Offline Sikboy

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« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2002, 11:45:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
Kratzer, just for clarity's sake, tell us who you think is defending the woman. Name names, please. Go ahead, I'll wait.


If I may...

It has less to do with who is defending this woman, and more to do with who,  believes  that what she did was evidence to be used against the case for corporal punishment. I believe that Kratzer is saying that this action of hers goes beyond the scope of "spanking" and trying to use this as part of a case against spanking doesn't make sense. She wasn't spanking her kid, she was beating the crap outta her.

At least, that's how I read his post.

-Sikboy
You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2002, 12:05:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Do any of you guys ever get kinda kinky with your wife and let her spank you? Just curious is all.


I tried, but she said Thrawn was against it.

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2002, 12:06:56 PM »
I don't think anyone that's posted here is defending the actions of the woman in discussion. Obviously she was way out of line with what is considered acceptable by any group in our society.

Just for grins (actually it's for my records for when we have the revolution ;))

Where do the spank/no spank folks fall into the conservative/liberal groups?


I find it ironic that a typical liberal feels it's ok to kill a child before birth but not spank them after. I know the argument, it's not a child, it's a zygote, but who among us began life any different?
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline gofaster

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« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2002, 12:12:01 PM »
There's a reason why they have weight-class divisions in boxing.

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #68 on: September 23, 2002, 12:33:30 PM »
Thanks for the clarity, Sikboy. I can see how it can be read both ways.

Moderate-conservative here, and spanking is A-OK with me.

Offline 2Slow

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« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2002, 12:42:35 PM »
She was way out of line!  No excuse.

As far as spanking goes, I practice it.  But only for extreme misbehavior.

The whole concept of "disipline" is the imposition of ones will on another.  When nations do it, it is called war.
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Offline Kieran

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« Reply #70 on: September 23, 2002, 12:48:06 PM »
Exactly right, 2Slow. It is only a matter of the methodology.

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #71 on: September 23, 2002, 01:45:04 PM »
I don't have all the answers.  And I'm not going to sit here and play, "Yeah but, what would you do if?", anymore.  I do know that whatever my solution ends up being it will not involve violence.  That is one of my limits.  And I feel much more comfortable with that limit, then setting my limit at "whatever it takes".



About corporal punishment though, it's bad for the child.  It is harmful to your child, do you understand?  But I don't expect you to take my word for it.  This is an exerpt from an article on an analysis of 88 studies on corporal punishement of the past 62 years.  A link to the analysis is at the bottom of this post.  It is the largest and most comprehensive analysis on corporal punishment.


"WASHINGTON -- Corporal punishment remains a widely used discipline technique in most American families, but it has also been a subject of controversy within the child development and psychological communities. In a large-scale meta-analysis of 88 studies, psychologist Elizabeth Thompson Gershoff, PhD, of the National Center for Children in Poverty at Columbia University, looked at both positive and negative behaviors in children that were associated with corporal punishment. Her research and commentaries on her work are published in the July issue of Psychological Bulletin, published by the American Psychological Association.

While conducting the meta-analysis, which included 62 years of collected data, Gershoff looked for associations between parental use of corporal punishment and 11 child behaviors and experiences, including several in childhood (immediate compliance, moral internalization, quality of relationship with parent, and physical abuse from that parent), three in both childhood and adulthood (mental health, aggression, and criminal or antisocial behavior) and one in adulthood alone (abuse of own children or spouse).

Gershoff found "strong associations" between corporal punishment and all eleven child behaviors and experiences. Ten of the associations were negative such as with increased child aggression and antisocial behavior. The single desirable association was between corporal punishment and increased immediate compliance on the part of the child.

The two largest effect sizes (strongest associations) were immediate compliance by the child and physical abuse of the child by the parent. Gershoff believes that these two strongest associations model the complexity of the debate around corporal punishment."

Here is a link to analysis of 88 studies on corporal punishement of the past 62 years.

http://www.apa.org/journals/bul/press_releases/july_2002/bul1284539.pdf



And as far as using corporal punishment to socialise your child, sorry, you are having the exact opposite effect.

"The more spankings children experience, the greater the likelihood that they will engage in aggression and other anti-social behavior."

Study reported in Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine, August 1997 by Murray A. Straus, David B. Sugarman, and Jean Giles-Sims



It is a good way to help them become drug addticts and nutbars.

"T O R O N T O Oct. 5, — Children spanked by their parents are twice as likely to develop drug and alcohol problems in adulthood, according to a Canadian study released today.
The study found that those who were spanked or slapped had increased rates of anxiety disorders, anti-social behavior and depression."

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/161/7/805



Guess what, children that aren't spanked are smarter!

"This theory was tested on 960 children of mothers in the National Longitudinal Study of Youth. This sub-sample consists of the children who were age 1 to 4 in 1986 and for whom cognitiveability measures were available for 1986 and 1990. Corporal punishment was measured by whether the mother was observed hitting the child during the interview and by a question on frequency of spanking in the past week. A corporal punishment scale was created by summing the scores for 1986 and 1988. cognitiveability was measured in 1986 and 1990 by tests appropriate for the age of the child at the time of testing. The cognitive ability scores were standardized relative to other children within one month of the same age, setting the mean at 100 and the standard deviation at 15.

A multiple regression analysis controlled for mothers' age and edition, whether the father was present in the household, number of children in the family, mother's supportiveness and cognitive stimulation, ethnic group, and the child's age, gender,and birthweight. The results indicated that each increase of one point on the six interval corporal punishment scale was associated with an average decrease of .51 points on the measure of cognitiveability."

http://www.unh.edu/frl/cp51japa.htm



Well, lets see what the The American Academy of Pediatrics think about it.  Hey, look at that they "stongly oppose" it.

"The American Academy of Pediatrics strongly opposes striking a child
From Caring for Your School-Age Child: Ages 5 to 12, © American Academy of Pediatrics (Bantam, 1995)
PHYSICAL PUNISHMENT
Parents often ask, "Should I spank my child?"

Many parents occasionally lose their patience or, in anger or fear, may spank their youngster. For instance, if a child runs out into the street, a parent may sweep the child up and, in a moment of anxiety for the child's well-being, spank her to emphasize the parent's sense of urgency or worry.

Spanking may relieve a parent's frustration for the moment and extinguish the undesirable behavior for a brief time. But it is the least effective way to discipline.

It is harmful emotionally to both parent and child. Not only can it result in physical harm, but it teaches children that violence is an acceptable way to discipline or express anger. While stopping the behavior temporarily, it does not teach alternative behavior. It also interferes with the development of trust, a sense of security, and effective communication. (Spanking often becomes the method of communication.) It also may cause emotional pain and resentment.

From Caring for Your School-Age Child: Ages 5 to 12, © American Academy of Pediatrics (Bantam, 1995) "

http://www.nospank.net/aap4-b.htm

So, all things being equal except the corporal pusnishment, your child will be:

-less intelligent.
-more anti-social (exact opposite of what your are attempting to do by spanking.
-more prone to anxiety
-more prone to depression.
-more prone to drug and alcohol abuse.
-more prone to criminal acts
-more prone to agression.
-more prone to child abuse

But, and here's your big plus!

-They will be more prone to be immediately compliant.

Keep hitting your kids guys!  When my child is the boss of yours, because mines smarter, better socialised and have better mental health, yours will be "immediately compliant"!

Talk about stacking the deck against your own kid.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2002, 01:48:16 PM by Thrawn »

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #72 on: September 23, 2002, 01:48:04 PM »
How old is your child Thrawn?

I'm sorry but if you don't have kids or haven't raised kids then you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Kratzer

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« Reply #73 on: September 23, 2002, 02:05:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
Kratzer, just for clarity's sake, tell us who you think is defending the woman. Name names, please. Go ahead, I'll wait.


Sorry, thought it was clear I was initially responding to Puke.  I think Hussein and I just had a little disconnect...

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #74 on: September 23, 2002, 02:06:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
How old is your child Thrawn?

I'm sorry but if you don't have kids or haven't raised kids then you don't know what the hell you're talking about.


roadkill.  Good example of ad-hominem thought.  You can't argue the points I brought up, so you try to attack me.  Hell I'll be damned if you read my post in three minutes.  Wether or not I'm a parent has nothing to do with my arguemenst against corporal punishment.  They stand on thier own.

Question for you Iron.  Say a guy has 10 kids, all 10 are in jail for dugs, assault, murder what have you.  How qualified do you think he is to talk about how to parent well.  

Jeesus :rolleyes:

I'm sorry but if you don't know anthing about logic and debate you don't know what the hell you are talking about.