Author Topic: Fw 190 A5 vs Spit V  (Read 2945 times)

Offline thrila

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Fw 190 A5 vs Spit V
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2002, 03:42:29 PM »
Awwwwww.....poor little luftweenies can't runaway from the uber spit V?:D :D
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Offline bigUC

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Fw 190 A5 vs Spit V
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2002, 03:47:03 PM »
Since we all agree, can we then please have the spit v's zoom and acceleration tuned down a bit?   Does anyone mind?  :D

Jokes aside - what is wrong ?  Spit V or FW 190 A?  I find 190's zoom & acceleration lacking against any of it's historical adversaries, but it's most bleeding obvious against the Spit V.  I agree that climbrate difference of 450 feet/min is not a huge advantage.  That is however correct.  I hope someone could do a few tests online and/or come up with original data for HT.  Until then this is just a huge, looming suspicion.
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Offline bigUC

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Fw 190 A5 vs Spit V
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2002, 03:49:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by thrila
Awwwwww.....poor little luftweenies can't runaway from the uber spit V?:D :D


Helmut Kohl ran off with your girlfriend? ;)
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Offline Imp

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Fw 190 A5 vs Spit V
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2002, 03:55:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan
all spits seem to zoom better then what I have read. The spit 9 dives with any plane in the game. The spit 5 in my experience doesnt dive nearly as well as the 9 (same airframe right?) but it will surprise you.


The spit 9 as more horsepower so it dives faster.
Dont forget that object, no matter their weight fall and accelerate at 9,8 meters per second.

Offline RRAM

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Fw 190 A5 vs Spit V
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2002, 04:07:25 PM »
Quote

Dont forget that object, no matter their weight fall and accelerate at 9,8 meters per second. [/B]





LOL :D :D :D


Someone please give this guy a real-life-phisics vs High-school-phisics lesson, because he BADLY needs it :P


P.S. Spit 9 more horsepower than Fw190A5?. Funny joke!. ;)

Offline -ammo-

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Fw 190 A5 vs Spit V
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2002, 05:23:04 PM »
RAM, I think he is saying that the Spit 9 has more horsepower than the spit 5, therefore it dives better.  Unless you see some thing I dont?? Is he comparing the spit9 to the  190A5??
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Offline Montezuma

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Fw 190 A5 vs Spit V
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2002, 07:00:15 PM »
If Spit Vs are giving you trouble in a FW-190, you need to start sucking less.

Offline Wilbus

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Fw 190 A5 vs Spit V
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2002, 07:10:13 PM »
I bet ten to nothing that Montezuma just said a nother thing to prove his low IQ.
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Offline hazed-

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Fw 190 A5 vs Spit V
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2002, 07:15:53 PM »
heres an excerpt from FW190 in combat' Alfred price.

a comparison between 190(a3 captured one)and spitVB(cannon version i believe). These are taken from RAF trials made during WW2 with the captured aircraft being flown by the Air Fighting Development Unit at duxford  and farnborough in july 1942.
All aircraft are described as carrying a 'full war load'.

'The fw190 was compared with a spitfire VB from an operational squadron for speed and all-round manouverability at heights up to 25,000ft.The fw190 is superior in speed at all heights and the approximate differences are as follows:
2000ft fw190 is 25-30mph faster
3000ft fw190 is 30-35mph faster
5000ft fw190 is 25mph faster
9000ft fw190 is 25-30mph faster
15000ft fw190 is 20mph faster
18000ft fw190 is 20mph faster
21000ft fw190 is 20-25mph faster

CLIMB
The climb of the fw190 is superior to that of the spitfire VB at all heights.The best speeds for climbing are approximately the same,but the angle of the fw190 is considerably steeper.Under maximum continuous climbing conditions the climb of the fw190 is about 450feet/min better up to 25,000 feet.With both aircraft flying at high cruising speed and then pulling up into a climb, the superior climb of the fw190 is even more marked.When both aircraft are pulled into a climb from a dive , the fw190 draws away very rapidly and the pilot of the spitfire has no hope of catching it.

DIVE
comaprative dives between the two aircraft have shown that the fw190 can leave the spitfie with ease, particularly during the initial stages.

MANOEUVRABILITY
The manoeuvrability of the fw190 is better that that of the spitfire VB except in turning circles, when the spitfire can quite easily out-turn it.The fw190 has better acceleration under all conditions of flight and this must obviously be usefull during combat.When the Fw190 was in a turn and was attacked by the spitfire, the superior roll rate enabled it to flick into a diving turn in the oppersite direction.The pilot of the spitfire found great difficulty in following this manooeuvre and even when prepared for it was seldom able to allow the correct deflection.A dive from this manoeuvre enabled the fw190 to draw away from the spitfire which was then forced to break off the attack.
 Several flights were carried out to acertain the best evasive manoeuvres to adopt if 'bounced' .It was found that if the spitfire was cruising at low speed and was 'bounced' by the fw190, it was easily caught even if the fw190 was sighted when well out of range, and the spitfire was then forced to take avoiding action by using its superiority in turning circles.If on the other hand the spitfire was flying at maximum continuous cruising and was 'bounced' under the same conditions it has a reasonable chance of avoiding being caught by opening the throttle and going into a shallow dive, provided the fw190 was seen in time.This forced the fw190 into a stern chase and although it eventually caught the spitfire, it took some time and as a result was drawn a considerable distance away from its base.This is a particularly useful method of evasion for the spitfire if it is 'bounced' when returning from a sweep.This manoeuvre has been carried out during recent operations and has been successful on several occations.
 If the spitfire VB is 'bounced' it is thought unwise to evade by diving steeply, as the fw190 will have little difficulty in catching up owing to its superiority in the dive.
 The above trials have shown that the spifire VB must cruise at high speed when in an area where enemy fighters can be expected.It will, then , in addition to lessening the chances of being successfully 'bounced', have a better chance of catching the fw190, particulary if it has the advantage of surprise.'


so there you have it straight from the horses mouth but of course as AKSW says this is all nonsense and the AH models prove these pilots didnt know what they were talking about :D joking :)


be aware this is the 190a3 i think that landed in wales and had some engine trouble in early tests which were resolved when spark plugs and ignition cables were salvaged from a downed dornier do bomber and used to replace the faulty ones in the fw190.The spitfire VB is armed with 4 20mm cannons and this would affect the performance vs our spitfire V (LF?) but i dont know by how much to be honest.4x303 brownings weigh as much as 2 x20mm? Essentially there isnt much difference between the 190a3 and a5 but as im sure others can tell you there are some.the A3 does have the same 2xmg17s 2xmg151/20mm and 2x20mm oerlikon MGFF .

theres also comparisons with spitfire IX , P51A, P38F, 4 cannon typhoon and prototype griffon spitfire.

what it basically ends up saying is you need to catch the fw190 'before it dives away' which it can do well in AH but i never get the feeling its really very superior to much do you?

Offline Kweassa

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Fw 190 A5 vs Spit V
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2002, 07:31:29 PM »
Luckily, I had an opportunity to experience a lot of fights of this very exact kind on a regular basis(non-stop for a week): Fw190A-5s vs Spitfire MkVs in the CT(Tunisia).

 The conclusion I have arrived to was that the Spit5, against the Fw190A-5, is literally "cannon fodder". Nothing the Allied put up in the air could compete with the Fw190A-5, and everytime equal numbers met over the deserts of Africa the SpitVs were literally slaughtered! The only thing that kept the situation "fair" was that there were always about 1.5 times more people in the Allied side

 The Fw190A-5 accelerates, extends away, dives away, and climbs away from the Spit5 with ease[/B]. Therefore, the AH A-5 is superior against the AH Spit5.

  ...

 However, there are some issues to address in that the fact that the 190A-5 is vastly superior over the Spit5 in AH does not necessarily mean it is advantageous in a historical manner.

 The largest problem of them all is the ability to hit something easily at over 500~600 yards distance(gunnery), and the ability for some of the planes to zoom climb in an incredibly steep angle and keep doing it forever.

 There is a thread in the Help forum that Daladyzmon posted:

  How do these planes do this anyway??

 As you can see from the thread, and test it yourself, certain planes like the Spitfire, N1K2, Typhoon, Tempest, Zero and etc can maintain a climb angle above 45 degrees, with the speed ranging 90~110mph and hold it there, maintaining at least 2500fpm climb rate and go all the way. To the extent of my knowledge, the discussion on this matter did not meet any satisfying results. All we could do was figure out which planes were able to do this, but we couldn't figure out how they do this nor if this is really, historically possible.

 Planes like Bf109s can maintain a steep climb, but once the speed range drops near 100mph, the plane quickly destabilizes due to torque and low speed.. with quick deployment of full flaps the Bf109s can "hang" there for just about 3~5 more seconds as if it is in suspended motion, then it would stall out. In the case of the Fw190, holding that sort of steep angle is out of the question in the first place.
 
 However, Spitfires maintain a 110mph climb, and N1K2s can maintain a 90~100mph climb. Zeros "flutter" at 80~90mph, and Typhoons and Tempests can also maintain a 100mph climb. Why? I have no idea. They just do that.

 ...

 Therefore, due to this problem, any sort of zoom climb short of 80 degrees angle will be caught up if someone in a Spit or a N1K2 is determined to get you. He will track you up all the way like a Sidewinder missile and spray at 500~600 yards.
 
 This means, unless you have E-superiority enough to lure him in an immediate straight vertical zoom, if you are gonna try to gradually lure him up vertical in a 190, its not gonna work. Even Zeros will catch up with you.

 You will have to zoom straight 90 degrees, hold it there until 100mph, and Hammerhead downwards(and hope you don't fall into an inverted flat stall).

 .. and that, is why the Spitfires seem to zoom so good. They climb forever in a 50~60 degrees angle at 100~110mph. I could do that in a Bf109 if I nurse it carefully, struggling to hold it from wobbling side to side.. but the Spits and N1K2s, they're stable. No problem whatsoever in aiming if the direction the nose was pointed at was good from the start.

Offline whgates3

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Fw 190 A5 vs Spit V
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2002, 12:38:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by RRAM
Dont forget that object, no matter their weight fall and accelerate at 9,8 meters per second.

LOL :D :D :D
Someone please give this guy a real-life-phisics vs High-school-phisics lesson, because he BADLY needs it :P
P.S. Spit 9 more horsepower than Fw190A5?. Funny joke!. ;)

 
that actually roughly correct for unpowered dense objects not near their teminal velocity nor sound speed - like a monoplane fighter...no idea what Vterminal would be for a Spit or 190 would be though...SE5a, powered had Vterm ~ 275 mph, so i would expect Vterm for Spit or 190 would be quite high...Spit might have a lower (faster) shape coefficient than 190, as 190 has that big flat nose, so it is quite possible that unpowered, Spit would out-dive 190...hey none of this has anything to do w/ this issue so i shut up now..o yeah, the point i was making - basic newtonian physics is accurate enough for most real world situations - NASA uses it for all their mission planning

Offline Wilbus

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Fw 190 A5 vs Spit V
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2002, 03:24:12 AM »
Whgates, I think, not sure though, that Ram refered to the Spit 9 having more HP then the A5. While IMP, like Ammo said, refered to the spit having more HP then the Spit 5. :)

This forum is full of missunderstandings now :)
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Offline RRAM

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Fw 190 A5 vs Spit V
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2002, 04:43:59 AM »
No, I was referring to the fact that in RL factors such as WEIGHT do count (and count a lot) when an object is falling thru the air. This is no high-school class of phisics where you solve a problem without drag, or assuming the object under study is in a vacuum environment. THis is RL, and in RL we have a nice atmosphere that changes the problem quite a bit from the theoretical, "perfect", solution we reach when we solve the same problem in a vacuum environment.


So, wanna try this to see it by your own eyes?: throw trhu your window a 2inchx1inch box made of paper. See it fall. Then throw trhu your window a 2inchx1inch box made of steel. See if fall.

If both fall the same way,with the same acceleration, and they reach the ground with the same terminal velocity, then I'm mickey mouse :D


then the comment about the spit 9,  I thought he was talking about the spit compared with the 190, thats why I said "funny joke" :)

Offline Imp

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Fw 190 A5 vs Spit V
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2002, 06:20:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by RRAM





LOL :D :D :D


Someone please give this guy a real-life-phisics vs High-school-phisics lesson, because he BADLY needs it :P


P.S. Spit 9 more horsepower than Fw190A5?. Funny joke!. ;)


I never said 190 had less horsepower than spit I said Spit 9 has more hp than spit 5 ;)

Drag would affect dive speed but thats obvious since it also affect level speed and climb speed so I did no mention the obvious

Didnt Galileo prove that objects fall at same speed no matter their weight? (feathers and paper dont count since air will slow them down)
« Last Edit: September 26, 2002, 06:33:27 AM by Imp »

Offline Hristo

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Fw 190 A5 vs Spit V
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2002, 06:43:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Imp


(feathers and paper dont count since air will slow them down)


Planes aswell. Wings slow them down...kinda ;).

A plane with great mass and small wings (read 190) will dive better than light plane with huge wings (read Spitfire) ;). Engine power isn't to be neglected either.

Then again, Spit IX and 190A-3 are about the same weight and same power. All reports said 190 outdiived the Spit. Spit also has more aerodynamic fuselage. Only reason I could think of are the wings.

Seems analogy of steel ball vs feather applies to 190 vs Spit. If steel ball dives better than feather, it should also zoom better than feather, I believe ;).
« Last Edit: September 26, 2002, 06:47:58 AM by Hristo »