Wep and cooling.......

[hitech]

Total wep time only resets at start of flight. It's purpose of for injection systems that run empty.

[Wotan]

No offense sholz but you really dunno what you are talking about when you say lw planes in ah have "been sucker punched". Plane for plane the lw planeset is more then competitive with any other in ah.

4 of the top 10 k/d non-perk planes are consistantly lw planes. The d9 usually at the top.

The a5 a8 and g10 are the others. The fact you read a book(s) that claim a plane was capable of XXXX doesnt mean you can come into the game, jump in that plane and be successful. You still have to fly it.

All I fly is lw planes for over 2 years in AH. There are a few things that just dont seem right but I am no expert. I learned a while back that its more important to fly the plane how its modelled then on my pre-concieved idea on how any plane should perform based on a book of anecdotes.

We all want a real FM but there will always be some aspects that cant be reproduced. Making blancket statements like "ht hates lw planes" not only shows your own lack of understanding but helps perpetuate the stereotype that all lw pilots are whiners.

On topic, I have never payed attention to wep per se. I use wep only to extend, climb fast or run down some one. Normal a2a fights I rarely use wep at all.


edit

sholz if you need same help getting accostumed to lw oplanes in AH email me or contact anyone of my squadmates in the main.

Or follow Wilbuz around.

[GScholz]

Perhaps all LW enthusiasts (i.e. all LW squadies and people who are generally fond of LW planes) should dive into their books and try to figure this out (not my book btw. ) Test the flight characteristics of the LW planes in the game, and then send a POLITE and DOCUMENTED report to HTC with possible solutions? If enough people are genuinely unhappy with the way LW planes are portrayed in the game, HTC should do something about it. If not … they surly are admitting to being biased toward the LW planes.

Let’s make this like a petition. Any LW “old hands” out there that can take the lead on this?

[MANDOBLE]

HiTech,
Air cooled engines temperature depend a lot on air flow (speed) and air temperature.

So, IMO, Plane->PlaneModel.PlaneParams.WepCoo lPerSec and Plane->PlaneModel.PlaneParams.WepHea tPerSec should vary dinamically in each Plane->UserSim->TimeSlice depending on current altitude, speed and even time of the day (night colder than day).

BTW, how is coded the increase rate in temperature when "radiator" is damaged?

[GScholz]

I hear you Wotan, and I’m not saying HTC hates LW planes, more like they’ve “toned” them down too much. The 190’s are more than just “a little” off performance wise. Remember AH is a game that claims realism when flight modeling is concerned. Frankly I don’t care how well the planes are balanced to the others, if we’re flying fictional WWII models HTC should say so, and name the planes Messerwulf 199 or Spitfighter Mk.V, and not connect the fictional models with their real-life counterparts. I joined this game because I thought I’d finally found a WWII massively-multiplayer sim that was modeled realistically by people who cared about realism and historical facts, and with players that wasn’t just looking for a quick “Nintendo” dogfight. I may be wrong, and flame me if you must, but I’m getting more and more distraught about this game.

Thanks Wotan, I might just take you up on that offer!

[MANDOBLE]

Originally posted by hitech
Quite frankly I don't know which is correct,I'm not the research guy

HiTech, a lot of people is researching and posting results, videos, pictures and documents just in an effort to help HTC to improve its product. IMO, their researching hours are worth some reply, if not yours then from Pyro.

[straffo]

Originally posted by GScholz
I hear you Wotan, and I’m not saying HTC hates LW planes, more like they’ve “toned” them down too much. The 190’s are more than just “a little” off performance wise. Remember AH is a game that claims realism when flight modeling is concerned. Frankly I don’t care how well the planes are balanced to the others, if we’re flying fictional WWII models HTC should say so, and name the planes Messerwulf 199 or Spitfighter Mk.V, and not connect the fictional models with their real-life counterparts. I joined this game because I thought I’d finally found a WWII massively-multiplayer sim that was modeled realistically by people who cared about realism and historical facts, and with players that wasn’t just looking for a quick “Nintendo” dogfight. I may be wrong, and flame me if you must, but I’m getting more and more distraught about this game.

Thanks Wotan, I might just take you up on that offer!

Just read all the posts since 2 year and try to figure if the nintendo part of your post still apply

[Bombjack]

Mandoble, I would guess that WepTemp is a seperate attribute which is added to another attribute (call it Engine.Temp) to get the actual total temperature of the engine at any point. Radiator damage would then cause Temp to rise rather than WepTemp.

HT, there are a couple of issues with this modelling that come to mind if WepHeatPerSec and WepCoolPerSec are static. Please take these in the spirit they're offered, I consider it a privilege to have the chance

1) WepCoolPerSec should vary with IAS (use IAS to approximate for effect of decreasing air pressure) and altitude at the very least. The IAS curve could potentially approximate cooling flaps which could only be opened at lower speeds without a drag penalty (ie climb vs level run considerations). The alt curve simply reflects falling ambient temperature.

2) WepHeatPerSec should be based on WepCoolPerSec, plus a value based on the difference between the "mil" and "wep" power curves at the current height. Otherwise you get the rather bizarre situation where selecting wep increases temperature without giving a power increase above critical altitude.

[Wotan]

The 190s are not toned down, The 190a8 is almost spot on. the d9 hits the mark as the 1900hp version the a5 may be a bit slow at sea level but theres a ton debate over that.

Unless you have a chart that shows differently then you are just plane wrong. No ones gonna flame you. If you need charts my squaddie heinkel has a data base full of stuff. So does wilbuz and Vermillion.

The biggest lw plane debate is about the 152.

The game is modelled on facts and charts and real data, not a feeling of how a plane should perform based on anecdotal evidence.

Again as shown in each tour the 190a5 190a8 and 190d9 almost always are in the top 10 k/d wise. My squaddie urchin went 104 and 2 in 190a5 at one point this tour.

The planes in ah arent without quirks but they hit the numbers. You are just plain wrong to think and claim otherwise.

Its up to you prove your claim, htc has a help file with charts for speed and climb at various alts for all the ac in ah. In the past when folks provided evidence where something is wrong it was corrected.

Again I mean no offense but the learning curve is pretty tough in ah. Any number of people are willing to work with you. It takes quite a bit of learning to get the most out any plane. You wanna see the lw kick some serious arse come fly in Saturdays Cap event with JG2. Check the Cap event forum for details. All you gotta do is show up and I will fill ya in.

[hazed-]

Originally posted by hitech
Hazed-, ive just re read all your post, you clame to have proved that the cool down time of the fw is wrong.

Hense claming we are wrong and refuse to change anything.

In all your posts I see you claming it's wrong, then trying to back it up with pure conjector.

Where in any thing you posted do you sight any documents concering the cool rate? You compare the FW to the P51, but then sight nothing about about the heating properties of either plane.

You are also looking at AH modling in a microcasam of the FW. There are a lot of planes in AH when look at in isolation should have unlimited wep.

[/b]

HT i asked over and over if what i TESTED was correct.That was the whole point of the post.I was asking HTC to let us know if the timing was correct as i cannot find anything to describe the cooling times.
Now i know im only guessing but I would put money on the fact the Dora doesnt take 2x as long as the p51d which was my whole problem from the start.I used to think the dora was just a little longer on cooling in AH but after testing i found it was 2x as long.Now if you read my posts i did say if you/HTC came in here and told me that the dora does in fact take twice as long then id drop the whole thing. This post is here to question AH tests.

You finaly take the final path of hey, if I don't get my way,and in this case get the cool down time for an Fw190D changed from 10 min to 5 mins, the entire game is porked.

[/b]

er if its wrong then i would like it changed.whats wrong with that?
ok the actual times i tested were 18 minutes to cool the dora from 130degrees (thats what i have as info when i play and read the gauges)
and 9 minutes to cool the P51D from an indicated 130degrees.

entire game porked? er i didnt say that either. But if it turns out there is no evidence that shows the double cool time on doras is correct,(present setup), I certainly wont be happy about you basically having a go at me for asking.I dont think the physics of the game is porked(its a great engine i think)  but as to some of the aircraft, they (mainly LW it seems) do seem to be worse than what many charts have shown on this BB.
you changed the durability of the p38 after it was questioned by customers,I saw no call for documented evidence to be shown.yet it was changed. whats the difference here? Im asking if its right not demanding change.I did several long tests, posted the results and asked why its like it is.


 im sorry but 2x as long still just doesnt sound right to me.Of course it could well be twice as long and ill eat my hat ok?? .I only started to get peeved when there was nothing said.Then you posted the code and it became even more confusing.

Quite frankly I don't know which is correct,I'm not the research guy, but I do know you have no way made a case that your version of wep is more accurate than what it's currently set at.

If you wish to keep trying , feel free to, but how about you bring in some documented facts to the table.


HiTech [/B]

you dont know whats correct? well neither do i hitech, again this is the whole point of me asking.

my version of wep? i didnt give one.??

I am trying my best HT but unfortunately i am not a historian.All i can do is do tests with your model and then see if they seem ok.
If i had found the dora to be 13 or 14 minutes and p51d 10 minutes i dont think i would have taken a blind bit of notice.It was only the fact it was twice as long that got me thinking.

I have read all i can about the dora and none of my books mention a poor cooling system.They do mention EARLY 190s having trouble when the nose cone was fitted and no air could get to the engines and that they removed it and found it didnt affect the performance too much but helped cooling.Later models DID have trouble with cooling or its mentioned that they did indeed run hot.but NOTHING is said about the dora.

It has water methonol which actually helps cool the engine if its injected at a lower manifold pressure (i think, im not entirely sure)

it has a pretty normal liquid cooling system very similar to other aircraft of the time ie p51s and the engine came from a bomber which i read a little about and it also mentions nothing about poor cooling.
So put yourself in my position for a minute HT.I have no access to the game code or the information you obviously have on the cooling times but i have played the game and found my favourite aircraft has horrendous cooling times.you then come in here and tell me :

An argument about reality where none exist. Anyone have any idea what the temp is supose to be on the fw's? If you realy wish I can change the gauge to read higher on the fw so it looks like it's cooling the same rate as the p51. But in the end all that would change is the lable on the dash board.

which i have to ask you , how on earth am i supposed to know the gauges i see in the cockpits are wrong?? this change in the gauge to make it look like it cools at same rate as p51d? I dont understand what you mean to be honest.
the gauge reads 130 but the engine runs a lot hotter on 190d9? in fact as your cooling times are set (i think??) and it takes 2x as long as p51d then it must run 2x as hot?

I have got annoyed in here and perhaps posted a few poor comments HT but I still find this a bit hard to accept.
If i had seen in one of my many books a mention of the dora running very hot or similar i wouldnt have asked.Like i said yes the fw190a's etc do mention this but the dora is a completely different engine with liquid cooling right?

anyone out there point me in a direction to check this sort of thing out? perhaps you could say where you got your info HT if it doesnt give away your sources too much? Id like to read about it if it is indeed so different to other liquid cooled planes.

[Wilbus]

The book is the one Gatt described.

Overall good Luftwaffe book (although some minor misstakes in it too) is "Warplanes of the Luftwaffe". Very good book with more or less all different planes that served with the Luftwaffe.

Hitech, WHY does the 190 D have longer cool down? We still haven't got an answer for this. There are quite much facts out there that state the, using MW50, the 190's could fly 10 minutes WEP (MW50) and cool down for 5 minutes, then fly 10 minutes WEP again. They could do this till they ran out of MW50 fluid (usually had enough for 30 minutes).

Allso, what Mandoble said, alot of us do research, lately I've posted ALOT of evidence that the Ta152 lacks the crucial GM1 boost (needed to make it climb right and go as fast as it should go above 35k). The Ta152 has it's max speed a 10k too low alt, which is a major fault and evidence have been posted.

I've also posted lots of test reports with the 190 A5 proving that it accelerates too slow and zoom/climb too bad.

Don't just disregard all threads you see about LW planes (not that you have as you're in this one), many of them are good and actually contain proof that some planes are wrong.

This thread, is more of a "why does the Dora cool down in the rate as it does" then a "the Dora is wrong" thread IMO.

[hazed-]

I have 'wings of the luftwaffe' by captain eric brown but unfortunately it has every aircraft BUT the dora!!

ta152 and 190a8 but no dora.

I have also:
'axis aircraft of ww2'
'JG2 richthofen' john weal
'focke wulf fw190 in combat' alfred price
'The first and the last' A galland
'battle of the airfields:bodenplatte' norman franks
'Fw190 aces of western front' john weal
'fw190 aces of eastern front' john weal
'Last flight of the luftwaffe' adrian weir
'the luftwaffe fighter force a view from the cockpit' adolf galland et al (david isby)

i have a few others but they are not LW specific and rarely mention actual performances.Mor stories of the encounters.If i had 'Fw190d9: everything you need to know' i might be able to help but it hasnt been written yet !!

[MANDOBLE]

Originally posted by Bombjack
2) WepHeatPerSec should be based on WepCoolPerSec, plus a value based on the difference between the "mil" and "wep" power curves at the current height. Otherwise you get the rather bizarre situation where selecting wep increases temperature without giving a power increase above critical altitude.

Very good point.

In HiTech language :

temp_cooling_rate = (something related to speed, altitude and engine);
temp_wep_rate = (something related to altitude and engine) * wep_is_on;  /* Always 0 when wep is off */

currenttemp += (temp_wep_rate - temp_cooling_rate) * elapsed_time;

if (currenttemp >= MAXALLOWEDTEMP)
{
   currenttemp = MAXALLOWEDTEMP;
   CutWep();
}
else if (currenttemp < MINTEMP)
{
   currenttemp = MINTEMP;
}

if (wep_is_on)
{
   if ((Throttle < 0.95) || (wep_time_usage > max_wep_time))
   {
      CutWep();
   }
   else
   {
      wep_time_usage += elapsed_time;
   }
}

[Duedel]

I like Visual Basic


BTW i like those threads with foundet and interesting discussions. Nice work guys.

[GScholz]

Alright Wotan, seeing you got two years seniority over my two months, I'll concede the point and thrust your judgment. Maybe I'm just not getting used to the new "feel" of AH as fast as I've done transitioning to other sims. I'm currently holding my own with a K/D of 1.3, but I'm used to higher values. Maybe you guys are just too good for that to happen here  Anyways ... I can't make it this Saturday, but I'll make a point of being there on the next (Oct. 26).

Just took a look on the Cap forum. YES, this looks like my kind of sim! Do I need to register somewhere? What's the timeslot? Will the Cap-arena show up in the "arena list"?

Thanks to Wilbus, Gatt and Hazed for your advice on literature. I used to read the "View from the cockpit" (I think that's it) series of articles by Cpt. Brown in Flight International a few years back. Loved them. I'll definitively get that book.