Author Topic: AH aircraft performance analysis & comparison  (Read 1332 times)

Offline minus

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AH aircraft performance analysis & comparison
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2000, 12:47:00 AM »
What  pony Sparkle BAck man huh sik about this pony wing not go off even after 4 x 20 mm below 400 and some ! crying for  sparkle back , beter Try the  190A8  is it a real chalange surive in that plane contra any plane when pilot is just average !!!!!!!
so what we can say about A 8  ? aaa is it jsut for pony practice ? t ostrafe it ?
 well I dont like  this WAY

Offline MrLars

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« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2000, 01:42:00 AM »
Oh my gawd...Badz!
Can't wait for these articles but tell me, am I gonna have to suffer innumerable deaths from you here like I did in AW?
  <--lookin' up for Badz

Lars

Offline Hristo

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« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2000, 02:09:00 AM »
How about posting various diagrams for all AH planes ? Could HTC publish their own data ?

Would be nice to see H-M or EM diagrams for both Fw 190A-8 and P 51D so we can compare things.

HTC ?

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Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2000, 06:47:00 AM »
Jeeze.. you ravening dogs.. BB made it clear he will hold up further AH plane testing till after the new release.. in the meantime he's doing evals on the other sims AC FM's.

Yeager.. YES!.. further, this also indicates that my own laments about the loss of energy retention and sustained corner performance I saw on the P51 when our CURRENT flight model was 'adjusted' back in beta was also justified.

Not that it matters one bit... it's still been and still is fun ta fly, and what we have NOW is still the best rendition I've ever seen in a sim; and as has been pointed out.. the journey is not over.   In other words, what we have is pretty damn good, and what were gonna get is gonna be even better.

Kudos, Pyro, and HTC.. and the rest of yah, climb off BB's back.. his eval's and comparisons are ALSO a work in progress, and none of us have invested the time and effort in this he has.. let him do his thing without harrasment from the peanut gallery... lets encourage him to keep us informed of his progress rather than give him a reason to clam up.

!

Hang

The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline gatt

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« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2000, 07:12:00 AM »
Hi Badboy,
I like very much your AirWarrior EM diagrams. But, isnt a waste of time to analize CFS's Pony? Wouldnt it be better to check the WarBirds one?

Regards,
GATT
4°Stormo Caccia

P.S.: my WB account has been closed some months ago.
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline Westy

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« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2000, 08:33:00 AM »
What Hangtime said  

 heeee heee he. Gatt!   If BB wanted to single handedly start the worste riots and flame wars ever seen here then he should switch the MSCFS flight models used for comparion with the WB's ones.

 -Westy

Offline niklas

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« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2000, 11:25:00 AM »
 
Quote
Notice that the real P-51D could sustain a maximum of
                        3.5g, and could sustain its best turn at just a little over 3g giving 22.4 degrees per second (dps) and a 600ft turn
                        radius

22.4 deg/sec means 16 seconds in a sustained turn for a full circle. Youīre absolutly sure that a P51 turned so good (afaik thatīs the circle time of a zero).
600ft radius for a real P51. Afaik the Spit had ~1000ft, the fw190 1400ft. Again, absolutly sure? Which source do you have for this data?

Btw i think also that sustained turns with more G-load should be possible. When HTC change the code in this way that planes can fly sustained turns at much higher speeds the whole fightening will change. Planes will slow down less in hard turns, e-fight will become much harder, especially with laser guns. At the moment, "break turns"+ spray and pray is not a good tactic, this will change imo.

niklas

Offline jmccaul

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AH aircraft performance analysis & comparison
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2000, 01:05:00 PM »
Could someone explain how to read the diagram, especially with respect to
e-retension.

P.S. any chance of an online comparison in the future AH, WB, FA2, WW2online(when released). (also B17-2 and il-2 would be intresting when released of course)  

Offline DR00

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« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2000, 01:22:00 PM »
Can't wait for the hardcover edition of this book.

Offline niklas

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« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2000, 04:24:00 PM »
jmccaul, this diagramm shows the flight limits of a plane. On the X-axis you have speed, y-axis shows the max. turn rate (degrees per second) that are possible.

A plane has several limits. It begins at slow speeds (letīs follow the blue line), here at ~78 knots. This is the limit of maximum lift-coefficient. The plane MUST fly right of this line, flying left is NOT possible, it would stall.
78knots is the stall speed at 1G, level flight. If you become faster (move right on the x-axis), you can fly MORE than 1G, that means you can turn without altitude loss. The Limit is not 1G now, follow the blue line up, and you see max Degrees/second increases AND max G-load what is possible with this airspeed.
So where can you turn fastest (for a short time of course) ? Itīs the crossing of the line of max. Cl and max allowed stress.


At 6G the line hits another limit, the limit of maximum allowed stress!
And at 303 knots there is another limit, the limit of maximum engine power. You can see that you MUST fly less than 303knots to turn, or letīs say: Whenever you fly a endless sustained turn, you canīt fly with maximum level speed.

(Note, the line goes vertical down. That means if you START a turn from max level speed, for a short moment you can fly 6G-turn. Of course you will slow down very fast, but you canīt see this here, because itīs a static diagramm, it shows only one single moment of a flight, and not how speed etc. will change)


The engine limit for this sustained turn is the blue line between the limit of stress and 0G (level flight). It says to you for every airspeed how fast you can turn. At max. level airspeed, like i said already, you canīt turn logically. the point for max. level speed is also at 1G. The slower you fly, the more power of the engine is avaiable to fly turns- until you hit the point of maximum lift of the wing, at 3G.

Hope that helps
niklas

[This message has been edited by niklas (edited 09-07-2000).]

Offline Viking

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« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2000, 04:58:00 PM »
Hey Badboy!

Good to see you've found Aces High and that you're still involved in the sim world. I've got myself involved with ThrustMaster, but still doing freelance work also. Do you still fly under the old handle?

Someone asked about the P38, here is a chart by Joseph Hong..

 
Viking1

[This message has been edited by Viking (edited 09-07-2000).]

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2000, 10:47:00 PM »
<throws peanuts at Hangtime>

Hah, you *really* think you can stop me?

Btw, you'll notice that the peanutes are half chewed.

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StSanta
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"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

Offline Andy Bush

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AH aircraft performance analysis & comparison
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2000, 03:51:00 AM »
jmccaul

The chart is called a 'maneuver diagram'. Here are the main points:

To begin with, the diagram has to specify specific parameters...altitude, weight, configuration, and power setting. For example, the parameters might be 'sea level, 10,000# weight, clean (no external stores), and War Emergency power (WEP). There is no such thing as a single diagram that describes flight performance at all weights and altitudes.

Now, let's look at the general shape of the diagram itself. For the given parameters, this is the flight envelope. There are three 'sides' to the envelope. The left side is the 'stall' line...the aircraft cannot fly at any point to the left of the stall line.

The right side is the max airspeed line. The aircraft cannot fly at speeds that are to the right of this line.

The top line connects the left and right boundaries. It is the aircraft G limit as set by the manufacturer. The aircraft may be capable of pulling more G than the diagram shows, but this would exceed the 'book' limits. G lines of lesser values are included below the top line.

The bottom axis is airspeed, and may be in True Airspeed (TAS) or Indicated Airspeed (IAS). It may be in knots, miles per hour, or Mach number.

The vertical (left) axis is expressed in degrees per second of turn rate and is a representation of how fast the aircraft can turn.

Turn radius lines are included in most diagrams. These originate at the diagram point of origin and project out to the right and up.

One last set of lines are usually included. These are curving lines that extend from the left line over to the right side of the diagram. Technically, these are known as Ps (pronounced Pee sub ess) lines...the definition of Ps is way beyond the scope of this thread. Think of the Ps lines as lines of equal maneuvering potential. The Ps lines have values ranging from zero to positive and negative numbers.

A positive Ps line means that the aircraft at any point along that line has an additional energy capability to climb or accelerate in excess of the current condition.

A negative Ps line means that the aircraft at any point along the line is losing energy, ie airspeed or altitude.

The zero Ps line is where the aircraft is just holding its own. It is neither accelerating or decelerating (or climbing or descending). The zero Ps line represents a sustained energy situation. To find the max sustained turn rate FOR THE GIVEN PARAMETERS, find the highest zero Ps point and go left to the vertical axis to read degrees per second.

The intersection of the stall line and the G line (upper left hand corner) is known as Corner Velocity. This is the minimum speed that the aircraft can instantaneously pull max Gs. In most aircraft, this point is a sharp peak in the diagram and is usually not sustainable. Remember, this is a value that pertains only to the given parameters of weight, altitude, configuration, and power setting. There are as many Corner Velocity speeds as there are changing parameters!

The significance of the Ps values is straightforward. The larger the number, the faster the aircraft loses or gains energy when flown at that point on the diagram.

Use these diagrams to gain an appreciation of where your aircraft is best flown for the given conditions. Use them also as a comparative tool to judge your performance with respect to other aircraft.

Andy

funked

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AH aircraft performance analysis & comparison
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2000, 06:22:00 AM »
I ask again, where did the curves for the "real P-51" come from?  Flight test or calculation?

Offline Vladd

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« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2000, 01:16:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Westy:
heeee heee he. Gatt!   If BB wanted to single handedly start the worste riots and flame wars ever seen here then he should switch the MSCFS flight models used for comparion with the WB's ones.

 -Westy


LOL ya got that right  

Always appreciated the work you did for AW and ELO Badz. If you and Andy ever write the AH Strategy Guide, you got a pre-order right here  


Vladd