Author Topic: 50 cal lethality .......  (Read 1035 times)

Offline hazed-

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50 cal lethality .......
« on: October 04, 2002, 12:35:09 PM »
found this interesting chart in Americas most celebrated fighter pilots handbook
'Fighter Combat tactics and maneuvering' by Robert L Shaw

note the difference in lethality between the 1933 M2 .50cal and the 1941 or 1944 20mm M2/M3.

I dont really understand the way the lethality is calculated but judging from the numbers its easily less than half the lethality of the 20mm.Also note the rates of fire

in the book it says this about working out thelethality of weapons:

'Table 1-1 is a collection of statistics on many of the guns which have been important in American combat aircraft, and is fairly representative of the armements of other nations, as well.Agood indication of the technological development of a gun is the weight of the projectiles that it can fire in one minute(assuming the barrel limitations and ammunition supply allows).In this table weight of fire is measured by the factor Wf.Tremendous progress can easily be seen here by comparing the post-world war I browning .30cal M2 with the 20mm M61 Gatling gun of the 1950's.'
'Lethality of a gun can be measured by multiplying the destructive power of its projectile and the number of hits.for non-explosive bullets, destructive qualities are generally proportional to kinetic energy: half themass of the projectile times the square of its velocity.To be more technically correct, the velocity used should  be the relative impact velocity, but for comparison purposes, muzzle velocity will do.The factor FL in table 1-1, a measure of the lethality of the gun, is proportional to the kinetic energy of each projectile and the rate of fire.
 FL should be roughly indicative of the lethality of a nonexlosive bullet fired at a specified rate from a gun,Cannon are a somewhat different case,since much of the lethality of these weapons is derived from their explosive shells.Therefor FL is a fairly accurate relative assessment of the destructiveness of machine guns , but underates the cannon in comparison.Likewise, it can be used to compare cannon of the sam projectile size, but it would slight larger guns in comparison with smaller ones.'

interesting stuff.maybe someone (with plenty of time on their hands :)) could do a calculation for all AH guns and give a figure for them all?

anyway heres the chart:

Offline Tony Williams

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50 cal lethality .......
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2002, 09:05:12 AM »
Thanks for posting the chart - very interesting.

I have been involved in various debates on other boards about the effectiveness of the .5" compared with 20mm cannon. The issue tends to be obscured by national pride, not surprisingly! However, my conclusion is that taking everything into account, and comparing like with like (ie equal weights of complete weapons and ammunition installation),  20mm cannon provided significantly greater effectiveness in air-to-air combat. Having said that, the six x .50" installation remained effective against enemy fighters.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
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Offline brady

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50 cal lethality .......
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2002, 12:25:07 PM »
National pride, favoratism, preconceaved misconception,are realy the bais for 90% of all debates on the BBS:)

 That is a cool chart reminds me of one in an old balitine book on the Luftwaffe I have around hear somewhear.

Offline J_A_B

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50 cal lethality .......
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2002, 01:49:11 PM »
"However, my conclusion is that taking everything into account, and comparing like with like (ie equal weights of complete weapons and ammunition installation), 20mm cannon provided significantly greater effectiveness in air-to-air combat. "

This is well reflected in AH.  The Hispano is a far better weapon.  The .50's primary advantage is longer firing duration--most the planes armed with Hispanos tend to have smallish ammo loads.

J_A_B

Offline hazed-

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50 cal lethality .......
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2002, 02:17:42 PM »
yes IF all 6 guns actually hit the same point you have a FL score of
6x.50cal 1933 m2 = 38.4
2x20mm 1941 M2 = 31.4
2x20mm 1944 M3 = 36.4

but like the explanation says this is weight of rounds as AP and doesnt calculate the explosive part of the 20mm

with the special types like incindaries and german hexogen etc it surely would add quite a bit more as they have substantially more explosive in each projectile.

im not sure how many of the 6 50 cals would strike a single point but this seems to point to a close convergence and close hit being more effective than a 20mm if both are loaded with AP only.
Over a longer range id expect the dispersion would be a major factor.

Im surprised you didnt already have this tony. you being the man for guns on here :D

Offline Dowding (Work)

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50 cal lethality .......
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2002, 03:50:44 AM »
The reason .50 cal is so effective in AH is largely a question of package. They tend to come in 6s or 8s - that's an awesome amount of lead if you get it on target.

The 303s aren't actually that bad - but you have to track your target longer to have any effect.

Personally, I'm an Hispano (Typhoon) or ShVak (Yak-9U) man. Although I was flying the 190-A8 in a TOD recently and found the 20mm cannons on that to be excellent. Managed to kill a pair of P-51s, both in high angle deflections. You essentially just have to follow the same rules as when using the Russian cannon.

Offline devious

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50 cal lethality .......
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2002, 04:26:46 AM »

Offline 214thCavalier

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50 cal lethality .......
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2002, 05:05:38 AM »
Also shows how badly undergunned the early RAF planes ie hurri and spit were.

Eight .30  = 13.6

Two  .50  = 12.8

Four  .50  = 25.6

Six  .50  = 38.4

The fact that just 2 .50's are nearly the match of 8 .30's says it all.

Offline Tony Williams

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50 cal lethality .......
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2002, 07:25:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hazed-
with the special types like incindaries and german hexogen etc it surely would add quite a bit more as they have substantially more explosive in each projectile.

im not sure how many of the 6 50 cals would strike a single point but this seems to point to a close convergence and close hit being more effective than a 20mm if both are loaded with AP only.
Over a longer range id expect the dispersion would be a major factor.

Im surprised you didnt already have this tony. you being the man for guns on here :D


I have various similar tables, mostly prepared by Germans or Russians who seemed keener on this sort of analysis!

The standard RAF Hispano loadout from mid-1942 onwards was 50/50 HEI and SAPI. They never used AP.

The British tested the Hisso HE against the M-Geschoss and reckoned that the two were broadly comparable; the M-Geschoss had more blast effect, which was better in some circumstances, while the Hisso penetrated deeper and inflicted more kinetic damage (large shell fragments) which was better in other circumstances...

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

Offline hazed-

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50 cal lethality .......
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2002, 08:49:37 AM »
Tony could you give us the weight and muzzle velocity and rate of fire for a few guns? like the russian 20mm, itallian 12.7s, 13mm mg131 20mm mg151 and mgFF 20mm? Id like to get the numbers for them to compare with these.

I know its not good for you to give out info from your book but it sure would save me a LOT of internet searching :D

also tony ive always wondered what the rate of fire is for the mg151s in the wing roots as they were syncronised to fire through the prop.Was it substantially lower?

Offline Vermillion

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50 cal lethality .......
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2002, 10:27:33 AM »

Offline Tilt

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50 cal lethality .......
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2002, 10:48:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vermillion
Hazed, check here

All the Gun Tables you Need

;)


What happened to your geocities pages
Ludere Vincere

Offline hazed-

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50 cal lethality .......
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2002, 11:03:00 AM »
er vermillion I like guns and all that but im not buying a book on them just to work out lethality in a game :D

I love books on war and aeroplanes and theres always another i want to read.Im afraid id rather buy more story recounting type of books than technical ones.

R.Shaws book on fighter combat is about as close a book to Tonys as any i have and that just has that one chapter on it.The rest is all about maneuvers and fighting.

whats more I know theres hundreds of webpages that give this sort of info (ie just ROF,bulllet weight,muzzle velocity), I just dont want to go looking for ages, wading through the crap websites drives me nuts!!.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2002, 11:10:07 AM by hazed- »

Offline BenDover

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50 cal lethality .......
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2002, 12:31:46 PM »
he's 2

Name                Ammunition          Rate of Fire  Muzzle Velocity Weight  
Hispano Mk. II  20mm x 110 (130g)  600 rpm  880 m/s  50 kg
Hispano Mk.V    20mm x 110 (130g)  750 rpm 840 m/s 42 kg

Offline Hooligan

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50 cal lethality .......
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2002, 12:44:11 PM »
I'll try to post the requested information later today.

Hooligan