Author Topic: Da speech...  (Read 2465 times)

Offline Tumor

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Da speech...
« Reply #60 on: October 10, 2002, 04:06:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
How are you going to defend it, funked? Are you in the military? Are you on active service?

Or will you, like most people who point to that poster, be sitting at home on your fat arses, flicking between the 24 hour news stations with a beer in your hand, looking for who has the best action footage?

(That poster still makes me chuckle though :D - the Spitfire Type R from that site is on my desktop:))


I'll take funked's spot here thankyou (dangit I looked for that pic for about 30min, never did find it!)
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Offline Dowding (Work)

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« Reply #61 on: October 10, 2002, 05:21:30 AM »
I'd like to know how you'd get him out of the chair, or prise the beer can from his hand...:p

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #62 on: October 10, 2002, 05:30:20 AM »
*FARTS*

Offline Toad

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« Reply #63 on: October 10, 2002, 07:59:52 AM »
Well, you see Nash, it's like this.

We have this "Congress" thing that is supposedly a "check and balance" on the Presidency. That makes us a bit different from Hussein's tinpot dictatorship, I think.

However, at the present time, BOTH houses of Congress (one with a Republican majority and one with a Democratic majority < that "hairy nipple" gets around, doesn't it?>) that are supporting this Republican President by granting him "war powers". Instead of just doing their job and declaring war on Iraq if these "wise men" decide that is the best solution to the problem.

Now I don't think this makes us a "tin-pot dictatorship" because OBVIOUSLY, unlike say, Iraq, if even ONE house of the Congress refused to grant him "war powers" we wouldn't be going. I hold that to be as true an article of faith as the fact that the sun will rise tomorrow morning.

Therefore, there's no need for a Second American Revolution....... yet. So our framers can rest easy. The actual form of government is functioning as they intended. The spineless jellyfish in the offices probably aren't the quality of men they envisioned, though.

What I do see happening here though is BOTH sides in Congress abdicating their responsibility to truly investigate the threat and deal with it appropriately. Because this is an "election moment" with the voters going to the polls in about a month, they've just decided to not make an issue of it. (Although I doubt that, were it NOT an election year, they'd really do anything differently). So, Congress, instead of "checks and balances" has just decided to hide behind the President. If all goes well, they'll step up and say "We were right"; if it turns out to be a disaster, they'll step back and say "It's HIS fault!". Typical.

What would I sacrifice if we (and I feel "we" is the right word, because we, the citizenry, are just as responsible) invade Iraq and overthrow their government?

I'd sacrifice time and money to work for an opposition candidate for the President and any Kansas Senators and Representatives that voted for this move.

THAT'S what still makes us different from a tin-pot dictatorship in case you haven't noticed Nash. Politicians can, do and will always makes mistakes. Fortunately, here we can simply vote them out of office. Without resorting to Revolution. Too bad Iraq can't say the same thing, eh?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #64 on: October 10, 2002, 08:28:39 AM »
Toad

if we wait around and wait on the UN approval and Saddam or his closet terrorists attack -  who will they hit? The UN or the US?

If the UN doesn't back itself up who will but us the US of A, the global robo cop for the world ...

If they do not let the inspectors inspect whenever - wherever -  however they see fit ... the US needs to make that happen, by all and whatever means needed - no matter what the UN says/does or more likely doesn't do.

Concerning Iraq, the past 10 years have shown the UN to be nothing but a paper tiger. They need to step aside and let a tiger with teeth handle what they have shown they cannot or will not handle.
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Offline Sandman

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« Reply #65 on: October 10, 2002, 08:59:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
Toad

if we wait around and wait on the UN approval and Saddam or his closet terrorists attack -  who will they hit? The UN or the US?


What makes you think he's going to hit something? It won't ease his sanctions. He can't possibly win. What's the point? Bloodlust?
sand

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #66 on: October 10, 2002, 09:49:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM


What makes you think he's going to hit something? It won't ease his sanctions. He can't possibly win. What's the point? Bloodlust?


do you really think that is all it is?

do you think this is the motive our government is so strongly pushing for his removal and destruction of his weapons?

don't you think they have the resources to know/have insight of just a few more teeny weeny facts than you or I do and are acting in our best interest?

or is it all about oil, $$, bush & his buddies :rolleyes:

even dashole is on tv as we speak agreeing with this admin
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Offline Nash

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« Reply #67 on: October 10, 2002, 10:40:55 AM »
Fair enough Toad. I don't think I'm gonna get much mileage outta painting Bush as a tin pot dictator in need of overthrow by an armed citizenry, anyway.

That doesn't mean I'm not gonna try! :D It's not Bush, it's about the Congress and Senate. It's not Bush, it's about the Supreme Court. Instead of Congress doing their job and declaring war themselves, they're giving Bush to "power" to go to war. What are they thinking?

Interesting logic at work, but I can't get a lock on it. You'd have it that because those three bodies of government are in agreement, the government is functioning as intended by the framers. And by extension this seperates Bush from a tin-pot dictator. How often do you see dissent within the ranks of the various bodies of government that make up tin-pot dictatorships? Is it your ability to vote them out that seperates you? The ability to vote someone else in? Are the two political parties there that far removed from the one party systems elswhere? Have they not become, instead of "Democrats" and "Republicans", mere "politicians"? So that dog aint gonna hunt. Not exactly, anyway. That's ok, my dog is just about out of steam... and was never really that fit in the first place. :D

No... I think the portrait you'd like to paint of Bush is more like that of a puppet or queen. Again, you hold it seems everyone else accountable, responsible... everyone but Bush. It's not Bush, it's those other guys that should be declaring war. Or not declaring war (still can't get a grip on your stance there). As if the very subject of war on Iraq rose up out of thin air and landed smack dab on the lap of the congress to do as they see fit. During "an election moment". I reckon to you, even the timing of all this bears no fingerprint of the Bush administration, does it?

I mean, it's just uncanny... mere coincidence or happenstance... the things that arise *despite* Bush...
« Last Edit: October 10, 2002, 11:26:52 AM by Nash »

Offline Monk

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« Reply #68 on: October 10, 2002, 11:25:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
Toad

if we wait around and wait on the UN approval and Saddam or his closet terrorists attack -  who will they hit? The UN or the US?

 


either way we lose :(

Offline Toad

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« Reply #69 on: October 10, 2002, 02:58:13 PM »
Nash, based on our previous discussions, I'll make the assumption you're not just soup-stirring because you're bored.

First of all, with the exception of Congress apparently (IMO) abdicating its Constitutional role of being the sole entity capable of declaring war, the Government is operating as the Framer's intended.

It is still a democracy, with our elected officials in place. Don't forget, according to the polls a slight majority favor this course of action. A small majority in a democracy is enough, isn't it? The rest of us don't necessarily have to like it, but that's the deal we all agreed to, isn't it? If the situation were reversed, the minority favoring war would be expected to live with it and not start a Revolution.

Now, unlike some forms of government, ours doesn't have the provision of a "vote of no confidence" and instant elections. (Don't forget that majority in favor; a vote of "no confidence" might well fail now if we had that system.) We have a schedule, voting for Presidents every 4 years, Senators every 6 and Representatives every 2. All arranged in a 2 year rotation so there's some "experienced" folks left around while new guys are added. And yes, that's what makes us different. Don't like the timetable? Too bad; it's a Constitutional thing. :)

The timing? Is it political? There's no doubt there's some politics in it. However, there's also no doubt that this is an issue that must be dealt with. If they had quit talking about it now until after the November elections would it make any difference? No, because those making the "political" accusation would then simply switch and say Bush was trying to influence the next Presidential/Congressional elections. Two years isn't all that long anymore in the campaigning world.

It has to be talked about sooner or later.


This is how I look at it.

1. There's no doubt the world would be a better place without Saddam trying to get hold of WMD. He's proven he'll use them.

2. There's a more than likely chance (again IMO) that he's in cahoots with folks like Al-Qaida that would cheerfully die to strike a WMD blow against the US.

****Pay attention, here's where Bush comes in*********

3. Our President has determined/decided that Hussein poses a real threat to the population of the US. Now I'm not arguing the right/wrong of that decision, just that he obviously made it.

Now that sort of thing falls squarely into his job description. That's why NSA, CIA, FBI, the military, etc., report to him about what's going on.

Now, also squarely within his job description, he's proposed his solution; replacing Hussein by using military force (war, to my way of thinking) with a new Iraqi government. I'm not arguing the right/wrong of that either; it's his decision to make.


*******Here's where Congress comes in********

4. Congress, in accordance with the Constitution, should be reviewing Bush's determination of the problem and his proposed solution. This falls squarely within THEIR job description and THEY AREN'T DOING THEIR JOB. And that ticks me off. They've ducked this one just like they've ducked every military action in the past. There's no need for an "instant reaction" here, thus no need for blanket "war powers" for the President. They've got time to debate, time to vote whether or not this country is going to war with Iraq.

Because spin or no spin, when you talk about using military force to replace the government of another sovereign nation, that's war.

And spin or no spin, the Constitution grants Congress the power to declare war under Article I, Section 8, Clause 11 .

Modern Commentators on the Constitution's War Power

I pretty much agree with those comments.

Now you want to blame Bush for all this war talk? Yeah, so? It's his JOB to determine the threat and propose the reaction to the threat.

Gee, maybe if Hussein was in compliance with all the UN resolutions we wouldn't be bothering to talk about this? Oh, wait.. .no place for accountability/responsibility on THAT end is there?

Maybe if 9/11 hadn't been proven to be a terrorist attack on the US we wouldn't be bothering to talk about this? Oh, wait.. .no place for accountability/responsibility on THAT end is there?

After all, everyone knows those arrogant Yanks really deserved this right? Because they've tried to militarily conquer the known world right?

Sleep well tonight and reflect upon what a different world we'd have if the US actually had been like the Soviet Union, Imperial Japan, the Third Reich, the Habsburgs, Tsarist Russia, Napoleon, Spain, the Mongol Horde, Darius' Persians, the Moors or the Vikings.

Instead of soldiers, we usually send food.


Go figure.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2002, 10:36:06 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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Da speech...
« Reply #70 on: October 10, 2002, 03:11:07 PM »
Eagler, they'd probably end up hitting both the US and the UN. After all NYC is still a prime US target and home to the UN. Double bonus for Hussein. A WMD would likely affect both and certainly could be planned that way.

It's lose/lose. As I've said before, I think we'll eventually suffer a WMD strike. A definite loss for the US there.

And a definite loss for the World. Because instead of the US they love to think of as "arrogant", there'll be a "new" US is that really is arrogant..... and determined........ and angry.

Wonder how they'll like a US with a " all classes of weapons free, targets of opportunity, cleared in hot" mindset? The "with us or against us" comment will take on a serious new meaning.

I think that WMD strike against us will really be the beginning of the end; twilight of the gods for the entire world. The start of Armageddon. The end of life as we know it. Whatever you wish to call it, it won't be a good thing for anyone anywhere.

Just my .02.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #71 on: October 10, 2002, 03:17:58 PM »
Well thought out posts, Toad.  I agree.

Sabre
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Offline Eagler

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« Reply #72 on: October 10, 2002, 03:52:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sabre
Well thought out posts, Toad.  I agree.

Sabre


yes I agree

and that is why we, as the most powerful nation on this earth, have been given -want it or not - the responsibility to make sure the animals of the world aren't allowed to build/buy/steal weapons they are not civilized enough to control
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #73 on: October 10, 2002, 05:05:48 PM »
Eagler,

The trick to the whole thing is that we must not become what we oppose. There's the rub.

I say again: I see no good coming from this no matter how we proceed.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Nash

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« Reply #74 on: October 11, 2002, 01:39:26 AM »
Nash, based on our previous discussions, I'll make the assumption you're not just soup-stirring because you're bored. - Toad

Dangerous assumption! :D

But nah...

Toad ... I can see that if I'm not careful, I'm gonna get entrenched in another of our... what's the word I'm looking for... Google debates... Just like old times. :D

Really...  you can do a host of web searches and dig out nifty facts like "Article I, Section 8, Clause 11", but I aint gonna let myself be overwhelmed by that style. It's BBS thuggery!... and there's only so many hours in the day.

If you want to connect the dots a little further you'd know that Bush and his admin were fully prepared to blast "Article I, Section 8, Clause 11" outta the sky if need be. Where were you three weeks ago? He was all set to play a few cards on that front, namely:

- "I am the commander and chief, thus have the right". His lawyers all gave him the green on this, and he was prepared to go there.

- Was set to piggy back on the '91 gulf resolution by saying that Hussein hasn't lived up to his end, so the deal (congress' 91 resolution) still stands. That one makes a certain amount of sense to me, but still, it's an attempt to sidestep the congressional debate that you crave.

- Intended to make use of the '73 war powers resolution (or whatever it's called) that his dad used in mobilizing troops for the gulf. Basically, you can do whatever you want, without any oversight, for like, 90 days.... After 90 days, and if bullets are flying, you must discuss it with congress/senate.

- Intended to leverage all this off the resolutions passed in the senate and congress last year, endorsing a military response to the WTC attacks... but damn... that would require linking Iraq and Al Qaeda. So far no such luck but not for lack of trying.

So Toad, I envy your faith in the system and all its supposed checks and balances. But yer guy Bush wasn't going to have any of it, no matter *what* transpired this week.

Getting this congressional approval is nothing more than political. When (your) "tin-pot dictators" go toe to toe, congressional approval simply looks good on the resume.

I'm having a hard time believing that you actually think there's anything more material involved in this. Well, that is, unless you're an idealistic left wing happy thoughts liberal popsicle! :P j/k bud.

« Last Edit: October 11, 2002, 01:59:45 AM by Nash »