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Author Topic: Gun control  (Read 2416 times)

Offline H. Godwineson

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Gun control
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2002, 11:00:27 AM »
MT,

Very clever!  But I've seen the cartoon before.

Why don't you read what the Founding Fathers pictured above actually said about the right to bear arms.  It might take some digging, but when you find their writings I can promise you they will be a revelation!  You might even find it on Google.

Regards, Shuckins
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Offline gofaster

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« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2002, 11:05:49 AM »
Do a search on ".223 caliber" (the round used by the Maryland/WashingtonDC sniper) on Yahoo and see what types of guns fire that round.

AR-15, various models of AKs, some Romanian and Chinese assault rifles.  Sold for hunting and general shooting.

I guess the days of bolt-action hunting rifles is over.
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Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2002, 11:10:54 AM »
Gofaster, .223 caliber?

I was hearing reports on Saturday and Sunday that the sniper was using a high powered rifle...

Varment ammunition I wouldn't classified as high powered.. especially not enough to blow a huge sucking chest wound or someone's face clean off...
-SW
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Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2002, 11:12:40 AM »
SW, it is a .223
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Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2002, 11:13:27 AM »
M-16 uses  roughly a close diameter, does it not?  Anyway, think velocity, not size.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2002, 11:22:33 AM »
Not to mention projectile type.

.223 with military ball is bad juju.

.223 with expaning hunting bullets is REALLY BAD juju when it hits a person.

And let's see... a quick search turned up these manufacturers of bolt action .223 rifles:

Cooper Arms
Remington (available in the LTR Light Tactical Rifle no less)
Ruger
Browning
Savage
Winchester

Just to name a few.
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Offline 2Slow

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« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2002, 11:27:25 AM »
223 cal is 5.56 mm.  Very high velocity.  Much larger round that a 22 cal.

This is eighter a wako, asemetrical terrorist, or someone hiding a homicide.  Shoot one person, the investigation focuses on that persons associates.  Shoot several in the same manner and the investigation broadens significantly.  The focus on homicide motive is lost.
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Offline Maverick

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« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2002, 11:57:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by 2Slow
223 cal is 5.56 mm.  Very high velocity.  Much larger round that a 22 cal.


Not true.

The .223 is .224 diameter. The .22 is .224 diameter as used in jacketed bullet design for several calibers, or I should say cartidges. The .224 is also used in smaller cartridge cases than the .223 shell but has several larger cases and higher velocity than the .223. The .222 was the parent of the .223. The 5.56mm is the same as the .222 with a very slight increase in size of the  case. This meant it could be produced quickly as a "new" round with little time lost for actual development in loading as the .222 data was almost identical. Velocity is almost identical between them. The largest difference is in the case neck dimensions as te .222 has a longer neck than the .223 or 5.56mm NATO round. The 5.56 is only .060 inches longer than the parent .222 case.

The .223 and .222 use bullets from about 40 grains (there are 7,000 grains in a pound) to 70 grains or so. There might be even heavier ones but they lose efficiency rapidly as they get heavier. There is only so much powder in th case and the larger bullets take up that case capacity.

The .22 longrifle or rimfire is a low powered round with a 30 to 45 grain lead projectile. Nominal velocity is about 800 to 1,200 FPS. This is less than the base .222 or .223 cartridges in normal loadings. It is also loaded quite low for specialty rounds like the .22 shot or CB cap with velocities down in the range of a BB gun. (450 to 800 fps).
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Offline mauser

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« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2002, 12:29:52 PM »
MT:  Their fingers are on the triggers! & Mr. Washington needs to be taught muzzle discipline.

I heard on the CBS news one of the reporters describe the round as a "killing machine."  The reporter also stood out on a big grass field with markers for 100, 200 up to about 500 yards, and said the round can kill out to 500 yards or "5 football fields."  Ok... I think I remember .22 rimfire (you know, the dinky little round they use in Olympic Biathlon, etc.) had a warning on the box that the round is lethal up to a mile also.  It's pretty ludicrous to me to attempt to villify a round.  

Threads on gun forums mentioning "Black Hawk Down" & "5.56mm" or "SS109" are usually about how our guys on the ground were noticing how ineffective their rounds were when hitting bad guys.  It boiled down to short barreled CAR-15's and engaging targets past 100-150 yds or so.  The FMJ rounds that the military must use does not fragment below a certain velocity.  But since these guys/guy are allegedly using hunting rifles and have no restrictions on ammunition type...

I don't remember if this was fact or fiction but I heard something about using microphone-type sensors to detect the direction of a gunshot.  However in an urban setting with echoes and reverb, I guess it wouldn't help much.

I'm affraid to think about what the backlash will be.   I hope you folks with scoped hunting rifles have enough scopes and ammunition for a while.  

Saw a rumor somewhere about it being possibly two latin males.  Then someone links it to Abu Sayaff since latin could mean Filipino.  Crazy stuff here, folks are scared and very few have a clue on who/why.  I hope whoever it is gets taken out soon.
For those that live there, stay safe.

mauser
« Last Edit: October 09, 2002, 12:34:25 PM by mauser »
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Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2002, 12:37:57 PM »
ROCKVILLE, Maryland (CNN) -- Evidence retrieved from the site of the most recent sniper shooting in the Washington, D.C., area -- including a Tarot card inscribed with the message "Dear Policeman: I am God" -- has been taken to an FBI lab for analysis, law enforcement sources said Wednesday.

Things just keeps getting stranger....

EDIT: That tarot card, BTW, is the "Death" one.
-SW
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Offline Dune

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« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2002, 12:44:43 PM »
I've heard the bullet is indeed a .22 caliber.  However, that does not mean that it has to be a .223.  Other cartridges that use a .22 bullet are:

22 Hornet
218 Bee
221 Remington Fireball
222 Remington
222 Remington Magnum
223 Remington In Progressively Shorter Barrels
223 Remington
223 Remington Factory Ammo V Reloads
Heavy Bullets In The 223 Remington
223 Ackley Improved
22 PPC USA
22 BR Remington
224 Weatherby
22-250 Remington
22-250 Ackley Improved
5.6 x 57 RWS
220 Swift
22-243 Middlestead
22-6MM Remington

BTW, the ballistics for these and most other common hunting cartridges can be found here:  http://www.accuratereloading.com/reload.html

Also, your standard .223 is a 50 grain bullet at roughly 3000 fps.
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Offline Puck

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« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2002, 12:59:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
we wouldn't have the sniper problem in MD/DC area if we had stricter gun laws


C|N>K

What the heck have YOU been smoking?
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)+(___<<___<<___<<___)-___);__+=___)putchar((_[__
])+(__/((___<<___)+___))-((___&

Offline Puck

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« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2002, 01:04:42 PM »
223 is the civillian version of the 5.56mm NATO

As has been stated, it's 22 caliber.  The 243 is also 22 caliber, but it uses a necked 308 (7.62mm NATO) cartredge, and is significantly more powerful.  A 22 is not just a 22.

BTW, I seem to recall the most deadly round in the US is typically the 22LR, a tiny beast with under 100fp of muzzle energy (typically) that people underestimate.

I've actually been shopping for a long rifle (ie something I can use to hit quarters out at 800 meters) lately.  Back in the olden days when I wore a uniform I used to do things like that with the mcmillian (now Harris) 86.  Before all this stuff in DC started happening I thought it would be fun to do it again.

Now that all this stuff is going on in DC I still think it would be fun to do that again.
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)+(___<<___<<___<<___)-___);__+=___)putchar((_[__
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Offline Eagler

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« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2002, 01:09:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Puck


C|N>K

What the heck have YOU been smoking?


caught another one ... thx :)
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Offline Puck

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« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2002, 01:14:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler


caught another one ... thx :)


Glad to oblige.  The C|N>K happened before I caught it, so I figured you deserved the recognition  :)

-----

C == COFFEE
N == NOSE
K == KEYBOARD

COFFEE | NOSE > KEYBOARD

Coffee piped through NOSE and redirected to KEYBOARD for the geek challened among you  :)
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//c coad  c coad run  run coad run
main (){char _[]={"S~||(iuv{nkx%K9Y$hzhhd\x0c"},__
,___=1;for(__=___>>___;__<((___<<___<<___<<___<<___
)+(___<<___<<___<<___)-___);__+=___)putchar((_[__
])+(__/((___<<___)+___))-((___&
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