F4U-4 vs Spit XIV

[Asmodan]

Spit XIV

[Shane]

Originally posted by Innominate
The problem with the perk system is that for the majority of players, earning the perks is more fun than using them.
 

because it's the only tangible way to measure your success after a sortie... i.e. that's the only numercial value you see if you pop into the hangar after a sortie.

a lot of people simply have no desire to fly these perk rides anyway after a few sorties in them... none of the perk planes hold any lasting appeal to many players beyond the occasional just for giggles flight.

if the hangar showed "score points" earned on the last sortie, not "perk points" you might see less obsession with perkies, even tho' you'd still be earning them.

IMHO I think they're (with exception of 262 and c-hog) all overpriced by about 25-30%.  plus i'd like to see them *earn* more for the kills they get... you'd almost need a 2:1 kill:perk ratio for a perk plane to "pay for itself," if not more.

[Turbot]

I have put a fair number of hours in the F4u-4.  I have not yet been shot down by a fighter in a F4u4.   It's a great plane.  

F4u-4 vs. Sp14 I have rarely seen the sp14.  Once that I remember, I was alone over an enemy field with a SP14 and 2 or 3 enemy within a couple thousand feet of my altitude.     The 14 never even had a shot at the F4u-4, I was only able to damage him.  The spit14 was always on defensive, diving for aaa etc..  It got to be so much a domination thing I even began using the sp14 as bait.  Other enemy kept coming up to "help" the Sp14 and I was able to kill every one that tried to enage.  In this case the perk tags were not a problem, they were a great bonus
 
This is my only personal encounter in reference to the subject of this thread.  Going on this alone I take the F4U-4 anyday.

- off topic -

Widewind is right, if you fly scared you aren't going to do well in any plane.  If you aren't comfortable flying alone in them - you aren't going to be more safe in a pack either.  That is false security. This is "war" everyone wants to kill you, doesn't matter what you are flying in.  (Will I chase a La7 50 miles? Damn right I will!)  Regardless of the best intentions of your fellow countrymen or your squadmates, unltimately it is falls on you alone to insure your survival.

There are plenty of stories of guys upping F4u-4 or Sp14 by mistake and having a great flight because they didn't know they were in a perk plane.  The enemy seeing the tag on your perk plane is not nearly so much a problem as your own awareness of it.

I don't fly the F4U-4 so much because it is expensive - thats alot of perks to lose in a landing accident or strafing a GV.   I do fly the 152 alot some nights because I don't care if I die in it, it's cheap and I somehow get kills in it.  This is largely because one day I was RTB from a horde of enemy and found out that at 6k alt the 152 was faster than a La7.  I started flying much lower and I kill alot more guys.   Though I am not yet especially good in it, the 152 has proven to be a very good plane.   I bet if I flew F4u-4 the same way I'd do 2x as well, but I can fly alot of 152's for cost of one F4u-4.

[Innominate]

I'm curious,
Does anyone believe that the gangbang tags don't cripple the f4u4/spit14/152?  Or does anyone argue that they aren't at least a big disadvantage?

Turbot, the problem with the f4u4 is just that.  You HAVE to fly it like you're going to be afraid to lose it.  If you fly it like a free plane, and don't care about losing it, you're not going to do as well in the f4u4 as you would in a free f4u, or an f4u-1c.  

Becuase of the tags.

[Turbot]

Originally posted by Innominate
If you fly it like a free plane, and don't care about losing it, you're not going to do as well in the f4u4 as you would in a free f4u, or an f4u-1c.  

Becuase of the tags.

Not a scientific study, but even with my stupid flying this camp:

turbot has 34 kills and has been killed 5 times in the Ta 152H.
(edit to add what killed the 152:  g10 2x  p-51D 1x  Mossie 1x  Ship Gunner 1x)[/color]                        

turbot has 32 kills and has been killed 9 times in the F4U-1D.

So I submit, if you can get over "the losing it" thing you indeed can do about as well or better.

[Innominate]

Originally posted by Turbot


Not a scientific study, but even with my stupid flying this camp:

turbot has 34 kills and has been killed 5 times in the Ta 152H.
turbot has 32 kills and has been killed 9 times in the F4U-1D.

So I submit, if you can get over "the losing it" thing you indeed can do about as well or better.

I'm willing to bet that you don't fly the 152 and the f4u-1d in the same situations.  I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make by that.  You can hold a k/d ratio with gangbang tags that is slightly better than a free plane?  Stats show nothing about how you fly, or how much time you waste climbing.
While you're bringing up your stats, you spend an average of about 20minutes setting up for a kill.  Maybe thats your idea of fun, but not mine.

Getting a good kill/death ratio in any perk plane isn't hard.  Getting a good k/d ratio in ANY plane isn't that tough.  It's all about how you fly.   The question is, how much time are you willing to waste setting up to fight, vs actually fighting.  If you're willing to fly 20minutes to get one or two kills, rinse, and repeat then anyone can get a good ratio.

[Turbot]

Originally posted by Innominate


I'm willing to bet that you don't fly the 152 and the f4u-1d in the same situations.

Getting a good kill/death ratio in any perk plane isn't hard.  Getting a good k/d ratio in ANY plane isn't that tough.  It's all about how you fly.   The question is, how much time are you willing to waste setting up to fight, vs actually fighting.  If you're willing to fly 20minutes to get one or two kills, rinse, and repeat then anyone can get a good ratio.

Believe what ya want but I fly all those sorts of planes about the same

edit to add more:

True, my kill per time is not way high, and that is fine with me.  Most all of my fights are traditional air to air.  I try to maintain a decent K/D and my ACM skills are just average (though I have been reading Shaw's book and trying to digest it).  This means I don't up from capped fields much and I don't do much vulching at all (though not above it by any means, if I am lucky to find a good opportunity of course )

Still  I only added the stats because you said

"If you fly it like a free plane, and don't care about losing it, you're not going to do as well in the f4u4 as you would in a free f4u, or an f4u-1c."  

You can draw your own conclusions  but I still beleive the enemy seeing the tag on your perk plane is not nearly so much a problem as your own awareness of it.

[Zippatuh]

Originally posted by -ammo-
F4U-4 has low-speed turning ability? LOL

I have to say this was my first reaction to that statement as well.  The prop torque on the F4U-4 is so great, or modeled in AH anyway, that low speed handling is like wrestling a sleeping bear.  It’s almost as bad as the F6F’s wing dip that was corrected a few patches ago.

Turning ability?  I’m not sure where this comes from either.  The 4 doesn’t turn any better than the 1D.  Maybe people are confusing it’s roll ability but it certainly does not turn well but it can reverse well.

Although my heart lays with big blue I have to say if two equal pilots met at any altitude with the same E state, the XIV wins.

[-ammo-]

What bugs me about the -4 is being run down by LA7's and Dora's OTD.  I lost a bet and have to fly this thing for a week.  Good thing the number of perks I have number in the thousands:D I have lost 10 of them.  1 was a ditch (*ran out of fuel with half a wing and landed on the base, but not the runway), 2 were disco's (arghh).  The rest, I got stupid and then egressed to the deck. I was ran down by a F4u-1 flown by Acid on one instance. and more than a few, ran down by a La7 or a 190d9 with several other slower spits or whatever behind them. So, eventually I have to do that pilot stuff and I get popped by either the dora or la7 or one of the lucky rascals that were in tow.  But, I must say, that it is one sweet AC. I have really enjoyed the power of that thing.

[Zippatuh]

Originally posted by Innominate
I'm curious,
Does anyone believe that the gangbang tags don't cripple the f4u4/spit14/152?  Or does anyone argue that they aren't at least a big disadvantage?

I think that it is a perceived disadvantage.

If going into a situation you know that you’re going to turn heads, how is that a disadvantage if you know that from the beginning?

Minimum engagement altitude for fighters – 15K regardless of the aircraft that I’m in.  Minimum engagement altitude for JABO – 10K also regardless of the aircraft I’m in.  In either account I’m carrying a red icon that says “hey the enemy is here come kill me”.  So what if it also says it’s a perky?  That just means on my 10K dive I’ll be dragging more than 1 or 2 with me on the way out.  Helps out for the next guy diving in behind me.  Not to mention getting the chance to rope a conga line and pull two kills and some damage off of a hammerhead.

I fly the 4 in the same way that I fly other aircraft and end up with the same or better K/D that I run for the tour.

I think it’s a perception issue that holds hands with no one wanting to loose there points under any circumstances.  Would I like the icon changed?  Sure, but honestly I doubt that it would make much difference in the way that I fly it.  The only thing changing the icon will do is place a false mask on someone’s inhibitions about “paying” for an aircraft.

It’s virtual war…  Are you really going to be any safer with a different icon?  Or are you just going to feel safer?  I think the latter.

[Nifty]

I see a perk tag I go after it with reckless abandon.

I don't do that for a "free" plane unless it's on the 6 of a Mongrel or just about any Knight for that matter.

Regardless, you get a perk plane down low in the MA and you seriously risk losing it.  With the current MA population there is almost invariably a high P-51D or other relatively fast plane with significant alt over you.  If you have to break to avoid that guy with smash, the turnfighters are gonna get you.

Zip just told you how he doesn't lose often.  He always has 10,000 ft below him in which to escape a dangerous situation.  I will assume that Widewing flies his F4U-4 in a similar fashion, and while running a JABO attack, I'm guessing he's running about 500+ TAS when on the deck.

If you treat any plane that way (SA, have the escape route, etc) you'll have a great K/D ratio and not lose many (if any!) perk planes to enemy fighters.  That's not how I fly though.  I get in the furball and see if I can get in, get out and land some kills.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Innominate
I'm confused.

I keep hearing "keep your e up" etc.

Right now successfully flying an f4u4 means doing the following:

Always stay above the fight, and cherry pick.
OR
Avoid any situation where the odds aren't in your favor.  1 vs 1 fights, or situations where friendlies vastly outnumber the enemies.

I know it's easy to be successfull in these planes, but to avoid getting raped, you can't fly it like you would fly any free fighter.  Flying around looking for lone fighters, or hanging out 5000 feet above a fight isn't much fun for most people.

So does anyone have films of using the f4u4 in any situation where they're:
A. Not above everyone within icon range.
B. In any situation with many co-e enemies around.

A perk plane flown as if it were a free plane should have the same chance of success.  Maintaining an E advantage over everyone should make things easier, but it shouldn't be the requirement it is now.  Am I wrong?

It seems to me that you are suffering as the result of a fundamental flaw in your approach to flying in a combat area. I checked your stats and you are currently 11/5 in perk planes (excluding the C-Hog, which has no perk tag). Somehow, you have enabled the opposition to get to you despite the inherent advantages possessed by the F4U-4, Tempest, Ta 152 and Me 262. If you surrender the tactical advantage, you will get shot down eventually. It’s not about cherry picking or being an “alt monkey”. It’s all about situational awareness. You absolutely MUST know where every potential threat is at all times. Moreover, you need to determine their E state as well. Besides, the term “cherry picker” is usually applied to opportunistic pilots by those who demonstrate poor SA, and find themselves getting whacked by an unseen enemy. Nothing, I repeat, NOTHING is more important in this game than SA. You may have greater ACM skills than SA skills. This needs to be at least equalized, or better yet, reversed. SA will keep you out of trouble your skills cannot extract you from. That's how it works for me. I don’t care if you are flying an F-16, if your SA is miserable, eventually, you will be shot down.

I have three basic rules I fly by. Speed, Altitude and Stealth. Whenever possible, I will enter a fight with all three to my credit, regardless of what I am flying, from F4U-4, right down to the SBD. Flying a fast perk fighter, I can maintain or recover the first two with relative ease. When flying a slow dive-bomber, you can count on NOT recovering any of the above. Therefore you adjust your tactics. Fly a really slow aircraft as a fighter for a while and either your SA will improve, or you will die every sortie.

As I’ve mentioned in the past, I routinely fly the SBD as a fighter. Now, if you think that perk tags draw a crowd, fly the SBD for a while. People see that sbd5 tag and come a-runnin’ for what they assume will be an “easy” kill. Of course, they quickly discover that it was me who was hunting them! Anyway, I’m very used to drawing a crowd, so I’m fully prepared for it. But, give me a perk fighter and I will have a huge advantage.

Another point: I can’t emphasize this enough, FLY CONSERVATIVELY, ATTACK AGGRESSIVELY. Seek and acquire every possible advantage, then use your advantage to attack with maximum aggression. Any hesitation once committed can be deadly to you. However, do not confuse aggression with recklessness. They are very different.

If you find yourself lower and slower than the enemy, you have failed to adequately assess the situation prior to engaging, or you have accepted the tactical disadvantage intentionally. If the latter is the case, you will have to rely upon your ACM skills to be successful, or just simply to survive. If you don’t have that level of skill, then avoid those circumstances. However, if it is a situation that you suddenly found yourself in, you need to work on your SA a bit.

My regards,

Widewing

[Apache]

I agree with you Widewing. SA is the most important. I don't know how many times I've been called a "cherry picker" or see "never saw ya", when all I did was a simple dive below lift vector, then back up when within 200 yards. They never saw me. A lot of folks have gotten into the bad habit of doing a straight 6 check, never checking high or low.

Case in point. Latnight, I'm the only bad guy over a field. 3 enemy there. In the 3 deaths that insued, only 1 even knew I was there or at least he was the only one that tried to get outta the way, lol..

[Innominate]

Widewing, My perk stats are bad for one simple reason,  I've been treating them as if they were free,  like I would fly any other fighter in the same situation.  The perk fighters deserve the same chance in a furball as the free planes.  They shouldn't be REQUIRED to hang out above it like they are now.

As you say, If you stay high, stay fast, you're mostly invulnerable in a perk plane.  Then again, the same also applies to a dora, or p51.  There are problems, first it takes a long time to climb that high, and pick up speed.  Second, there is little real fighting you can do, you can bnz all day long, but unless you're lucky enough to catch a  1vs1, an extended fight is suicide.

You say, stay high, stay fast and you won't get shot down.  Getting shot down isn't the issue.  Getting gangbanged is.  The F4U-4 or spit14 should be able to go into a furball right next to a f4u-1d or spit9 and have at LEAST the same chance of coming out alive.  With the tags, an f4u4 who doesnt come in with a huge e advantage is doomed.  

Even losing the plane is not an issue,  the entire purpose of the perks is to spend them.  Being consistantly gangbanged is NOT FUN.  Arguing that people don't gangbang these planes is just silly.  Yes you can avoid it by spending 10 extra minutes climbing, and hanging out above everyone else.  But you shouldn't have to.  

The f4u4/spit14 should not be marked as targets any differently than thier free cousins.  Neither plane has a huge performance advantage over the free fighters.  Both should be perked, but are unable to handle thier tags.

The 262 is the only one of the perk fighters which deserves it's tag IMO.  It's the only one that can dictate ANY fight.

[Turbot]

Perk planes seem to be doing fine overall (tags and all)?  I don't see where they are getting mass murdered or something.  And - back on topic (AGAIN)  overall the F4U-4 is whoopin that SP14 tail.

The F4U-4 has 501 kills and has been killed 155 times. (3.23)
The F4U-1C has 3588 kills and has been killed 1389 times. (2.58)
The F4U-1D has 7406 kills and has been killed 8307 times. (0.89)

The Spitfire Mk XIV has 335 kills and has been killed 203 times. (1.65)
The Spitfire Mk IX has 16391 kills and has been killed 14758 times. (1.11)

I am pretty hard headed and simple minded, so please excuse me - I still just don't see the problem.




edit missed this stat - they don't meet up very often it would seem:  

The F4U-4 has 2 kills and has been killed 1 time against the Spitfire Mk XIV.