F4U-4 vs Spit XIV

[fdiron]

F4U-4 vs SpitXIV

I have had several encounters with the Spitfire XIV while flying the F4U4.  It is my experience that the -4 is a superior aircraft.  The XIV has only a slight turning advantage over the -4 and can neither roll, dive, or decelerate as fast.  The F4U-4 is faster than the SpitXIV, especially on the deck.  At 25k both aircraft peak out at ~450mph.  The spit has a large climb advantage over the F4 at lower altitudes, but they are nearly identical at higher alts.

So I guess the question is, would you rather be flying a Spit XIV or F4U-4?  For me, I think the F4U-4 is a 'world beater'.

[Innominate]

BUT
The spit14 has the climb rate to escape from an iffy situation.  The F4U-4 has to prettymuch avoid them completly.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Innominate
BUT
The spit14 has the climb rate to escape from an iffy situation.  The F4U-4 has to prettymuch avoid them completly.

I recently chased down and killed some guy's F4U-4 with my SBD. That is a prime example of how to squander a plane's performance through miserable SA and very poor judgement.

My experience with the F4U-4 is that if you manage your E carefully, it is virtually untouchable. Three times yesterday, I ripped right through a horde of Seafires and Hellcats to rocket and strafe all of their LVTs. There was absolutely nothing the enemy could do about it. Once the LVTs were dead, I inflicted the same abuse on the fighters, capping the sortie with a PT blown to dust.

In terms of HTC's modelling of the -4, climb rate is about 10-15% below what it should be. Other than that, it is an extremely potent fighter, and I certainly prefer it to the Spitfire XIV and the Tempest V.

My regards,

Widewing

[Innominate]

Originally posted by Widewing

In terms of HTC's modelling of the -4, climb rate is about 10-15% below what it should be. Other than that, it is an extremely potent fighter, and I certainly prefer it to the Spitfire XIV and the Tempest V.

You're completly right on every point.  However, the p51d or dora is almost exactly the same way.  The f4u-4 lacks the performance to escape(that is, without having to fight) being bounced by something like a p51d, or dora.  The same is true of the 152, and the spit14, but not the me262.(Note, I'm intentionally leaving the tempest out of this, because I'm not familiar enough with it to comment.)  The perk planes which are vulnerable to being bounced shouldn't be forced to fly in the stratosphere to avoid being singled out.  The gangbang tags should go.

You should fly a perk plane a certain way to try and avoid losing the perks.  You shouldn't have to fly them differently to simply avoid being gangbanged, or singled out.  The performance advantage is not big enough to justify it.  Untill that happens, the only perk planes worth flying(Unless spending 10minutes climbing is your idea of a good time) are the C-hog and the 262.

[aknimitz]

Spit XIV

Nim

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Innominate


You're completly right on every point.  However, the p51d or dora is almost exactly the same way.  The f4u-4 lacks the performance to escape(that is, without having to fight) being bounced by something like a p51d, or dora.  The same is true of the 152, and the spit14, but not the me262.(Note, I'm intentionally leaving the tempest out of this, because I'm not familiar enough with it to comment.)  The perk planes which are vulnerable to being bounced shouldn't be forced to fly in the stratosphere to avoid being singled out.  The gangbang tags should go.

You should fly a perk plane a certain way to try and avoid losing the perks.  You shouldn't have to fly them differently to simply avoid being gangbanged, or singled out.  The performance advantage is not big enough to justify it.  Untill that happens, the only perk planes worth flying(Unless spending 10minutes climbing is your idea of a good time) are the C-hog and the 262.

I tend to fly the F4U-4 more aggressively that the C-Hog, and this tour I'm flying the C-Hog more than ever. I don't worry about being bounced. Largely because it simply does not happen. Being bounced means not seeing the enemy, and I almost never get surprised.

My philosophy is very simple: Never worry about the enemy, let the enemy worry about you.

With the -4 you have an extremely fast fighter that will dominate any fight if you manage your E, and force the enemy to fight to your strengths. Mustangs and Doras are terrific fighters. I know, because I fly them both. However, Co-E and Co-alt with the F4U-4, they are over-matched. As for the Tempest and La-7, they have good speed on the deck and decent maneuverability. Yet, neither concerns me as long as I keep my E up and force them to cope with me, rather than the reverse. I also fly the Tempest, and frankly, I find it inferior to the -4 in terms of all-around capability. It has great speed below 20k, monster guns and dives well. Nonetheless, it does nothing better than the -4 and suffers from a very weak radiator. Almost any hit results in a coolant leak. On the other hand, the -4 is reasonably robust and has no radiator.

As to perk tags. I tend to agree that they draw attention. Then again, so what? Most of the guys who race after properly flown perk planes are just begging to get smacked. By properly flown, I mean using the aircraft's great speed to maximum advantage. Getting one low and slow just tells me the pilot lacks the fundamental knowledge and/or SA required in the first place. Those guys who fly perk planes on a regular basis simply don't make those mistakes, and consequently are extremely dangerous. Three examples being MCBird, Orel and Voss. This tour, I have over 100 kills in perk planes (not flying jets), and haven't lost a single one to enemy fighters. This is due to good SA and proper tactics, not the result of extraordinary dogfighting skills.  

For dogfighting, I prefer the FM-2 (haven't lost any of those yet either) and the SBD, with which I am maintaining better than a 8:1 K/D air to air. J_A_B joined me aboard my Dauntless last evening, and we had fun defending a CV, even landing couple of fighter kills. If anyone wishes to ride along, the backseat is available to those wanting to come and I always accept "join requests" when flying it.

Back to the topic. I like the SpitfireXIV, however, it is a rather frail fighter. I also like the Tempest, but its radiator is rediculously weak. I see no reason to perk the Ta 152 beyond 10 points, and the C-Hog is just about right as it is. Taken as a group, I certainly prefer the F4U-4 over the others, because it lacks the weaknesses of the liquid cooled fighters, and will flat-out fly circles around the C-Hog. Nonetheless, nothing beats the C-Hog for tearing bomber formations to shreds.

My regards,

Widewing

[Innominate]

From about 3000 to 14000feet the p51d is faster than the f4u4.  Thier climb rate is fairly evenly matched from 3 to about 8000feet, above that the f4u4 does gain a signficiant advantage.  Most fights happen in this altitude range.  Anything higher is altmonkeying.  At these altitude, the f4u4 and p51d are almost identical.

From 1000feet to about 15000feet, the dora will out-run the f4u4.  It will also easily out-climb it up to 15000feet.

One of the f4u4's strengths over planes like the dora, and la7 is low speed turning ability, which would be suicidal to use in the MA.

The f4u4's only exceptional speed is between 0 and about 1000feet, where it's faster than every free plane, except the la7(but only by about 2mph).  Between 1000 and about 5000feet, the speed drops off sharply, giving a severe penealty at these altitudes.

I don't complain about perk costs, but the tags ruin the fun of flying these planes.  I don't mind dying in them, but it's annoying when a lone fighter cruising at 25k picks your f4u4 out of a large group of friendlies.  I'd rather fly a c-hog.

[J_A_B]

"I don't mind dying in them, but it's annoying when a lone fighter cruising at 25k picks your f4u4 out of a large group of friendlies. "

So you'd prefer it to attack someone else so you could then cherry-pick it?


Try flying alone a lot of the time.  Then I guarantee you won't see anything wrong with the tags--when it's just you against a bunch of enemies, they're all going to attack you regardless of what tag you have.   And try to remember you WILL lose them occasionally because NO plane is invincible.

J_A_B

[Innominate]

Originally posted by J_A_B
"I don't mind dying in them, but it's annoying when a lone fighter cruising at 25k picks your f4u4 out of a large group of friendlies. "

So you'd prefer it to attack someone else so you could then cherry-pick it?

Exactly.

Seriously though, The whole point of safety in numbers is that it reduces the chance of your being targeted randomly.  In an f4u4, it doesnt matter how many friendlies are around, it's just you, and a wingman if you have one.

Even when you're alone the f4u4 tag draws more than normal.  Often, a non-perk plane will be ignored by people who aren't in a position to easily intercept, but a perk tag will draw anyone who can point thier nose at you.  

The odds are always worse than in a free plane.  In the me262, this isn't an issue, but in a plane that doesnt have any significant speed advantage, the odds quickly become too much.

A p51d is more survivable than an f4u4, if both are flown exactly the same way.  This is only because of the tags.

[J_A_B]

"A p51d is more survivable than an f4u4, if both are flown exactly the same way."

Depends on how you fly them and how agressive you are.  If you choose to fly in a very conservative manner and not USE the F4U-4's strengths, then indeed there's little reason to choose it.

For MA purposes, the 190D-9 is a better choice for 75% of the P-51D pilots out there as well, because the typical MA 51 driver doesn't use the 51's main advantages over the Dora.  They make long, straight passes and maybe reverse once they're out of ICON range.  

What a plane can do is one thing.  Actually making use of its strengths is another matter entirely.   The F4U-4 outclimbs the P-51 at many altitudes, outruns it at important altitudes, outrolls and out-turns it and I believe it outzooms the Mustang as well.  It carries more ammo and can take a lot more damage.  It's even available from carriers (and it makes a wonderful fleet defence fighter).

Don't worry about how many enemies are attacking you.  Only worry about their position relative to you.  More attackers who aren't a direct threat only means more potential targets.  

J_A_B

[Innominate]

Originally posted by J_A_B
"A p51d is more survivable than an f4u4, if both are flown exactly the same way."

Depends on how you fly them and how agressive you are.  If you choose to fly in a very conservative manner and not USE the F4U-4's strengths, then indeed there's little reason to choose it.

...

What a plane can do is one thing.  Actually making use of its strengths is another matter entirely.   The F4U-4 outclimbs the P-51 at many altitudes, outruns it at important altitudes, outrolls and out-turns it and I believe it outzooms the Mustang as well.  It carries more ammo and can take a lot more damage.  It's even available from carriers (and it makes a wonderful fleet defence fighter).

Don't worry about how many enemies are attacking you.  Only worry about their position relative to you.  More attackers who aren't a direct threat only means more potential targets.  

ok,  To start with, if you fly an f4u4 to its strengths, and then switch to a p51d, using the same techniques, you will do better.  There p51 doesn't climb as well, but everything else it's only close behind.  The planes are very similar, although the f4u4 does come out on top much of the time.  Not having the tags is a HUGE advantage, more than enough to make up for the f4u4's small performance advantage.

The f4u4 DOES out-climb the p51d above 8000 feet, and below 3000 feet. I am wondering though, what you consider to be important altitudes?  Virtually all fights happen at the altitudes where the p51d out-runs the f4u4.  between about 3k and 14k, the dora between 1k and 15k.  So if 100feet, and 16000feet are the important altitudes, and not the altitudes where most people fly, then sure the f4u4 is faster.  Define important altitudes please.

The f4u4 DOES handle very well in low speed turning fights, possibly better than the p51d.(I havn't tested it though, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt)  The big problem is, because of the tags, a turning fight is suicide, unless it's a 1v1 fight, if there is more than one baddie, turning is not an option.  Handling above 250mph or so is fairly irrelavent, except at speeds where some planes start to compress, since virtually any plane can black the pilot out at those speeds.

The tags draw people to you.  In a free plane, people will often pass you up if you don't look like an easy kill.  In a perk plane, if they can engage you, they will.  They will even go out of thier way to do it.  As you say, thier position to you is what matters.  If you're not above them, you're in serious trouble, whereas in say, a p51d, you're in a much better position.

The tags are one of the biggest disadvantages any plane can have.

[ALF]

Perk tags are STUPID.  Theres no reason you should see F4U-4 from 6000 yards, if you get in close you can see the paint job, but those that say perk tags are ok for perked varients are being ignorant, all it does is make the perk planes more valuable as bait than as planes.  

This makes perk planes LESS attractive to fly than their non perk equivalents, EVEN IF THE POINT COST IS MEANINGLESS TO YOU (I really could care less about losing 60 perk points out of a few thousand)

F4U in a furball 10 vs 10, Ive got a good chance of getting several kills and surviving using sound tactics, but not in an F4U-4, after one pass, at least 5, probably more, of the enemy are going to be ignoring everyone else in the hopes of killing my perk plane.  Making the perk varient all but useless in normal play.

[Pongo]

If it didnt add to the value of the simular varients that are not perked I would aggree. I dont think a spit i should be able to be confused with a spit xiv.

[Innominate]

Originally posted by Pongo
If it didnt add to the value of the simular varients that are not perked I would aggree. I dont think a spit i should be able to be confused with a spit xiv.

You mean like a 109E can be confused with a 109G-10?
Or a spit1 and a spit9?
Or an f4u-1c and an f4u-1?
Or a 190A and a 190D?
Or a yak9t, and yak9u?

We already deal with exactly what you mention with the F4U-1C, never knowing if that f4u has cannons or not.  Most spits, and most f4u's would be the unperked variety, and it's easy to determine what you're up against once you engage it.

[J_A_B]

"You mean like a 109E can be confused with a 109G-10? "

Absolutely right, in a perfect world every plane would have a unique ID tag    

Oh and ALF, my thought is people who want no special tags on perk planes don't actually want to do anything involving skill, they just want to cherry-pick undetected.   That is the ONLY possible motive for worrying about having a special ICON.


J_A_B