Bali bombing

[Ripsnort]

Reported today that that CIA reported 24 hours to our Gvo't that in turn reported to the Indonesians in advance of the Bali bombing that a possible Al Q strike was imminent.

[Maverick]

FWIW, I got the intent of what miko posted. I have been overseas in a potentially hostile area. You should assume that being a westerner in a non western "state" is anything but a safe bet. Westerners, especially Americans are now prime targets. Anyone that looks like a westerner or better yet an American is likely to be targeted in any country that has a significant number of groups dedicated to killing Americans. No matter what political persuasion you profess, sympathies or whatever you are a target of these terrorists. As has been posted earlier, if you go to a country listed as a risk or hazardous area you shoud ASSUME you could be targeted and killed / kidnapped.

Think for a minute, after Pearl was kidnapped, does ANYONE think that the Philipenes is a safe place for a westerner / non muslim to visit? If you do then you are living a fantasy. The same for Kuwait, Saudi, Isreal, Somalia and so on. If there is a significant muslim population you had better assume that there are al queda and other muslim extremists in the area. They do not like Americans or westerners in general. You are a target of oportunity if you go into their area of operation.

That is all Miko was saying. It just didn't come out that way for several of you.

I think the Bali bombers and other terrorist are a blight on the earth and should be eradicated. Until we do take care of that there will be more killings of innocents and tourists as they are incapable of meeting us on a military footing. The attack what they think they can get away with like any coward.

[Vulcan]

Miko, you just don't get it. Who says Bali wasn't safe?

Show me the statistics dickhead or STFU. Even the US travel advisory notes Bali is unaffected by issues elsewhere in Indonesia (which is a big country BTW, not just some little tinpot island).

As for the pedophiles, look a little closer to home. Take a long close look at the American Foreign Service, and the Christian Aid Agencies.

When you make such rediculous uninformed and opinionated comments about a region you exhibit little understanding of expect to be flamed - especially when those comments mock people so innocent who have perished.

I will not stand by while some amazinhunk tries to look like a smartarse at the expense of others deaths, especially when its so close to home.

[miko2d]

Ripsnort: So, NYC and DC are very dangerous places today, is it the fault of Victim #11 at Home Depot, or the 3,000 in the WTC that they were at the wrong place at the wrong time?
 You quoted my statement but apparently failed to read it carefully. Here it is again, expanded, with highlight that hopefully answeres your question to your satisfaction:
 "People went into an area with "Danger" signs all over the place for no better reason than to have a party and risked their lives in the process."

 That kind of implies that I admit existence of good reasons for facing danger. Doing one's duty or staying with one's family in on's own homeland are such in my opinion.


Dowding: miko2d - does the thought of sex with children give you a rise? You seem to be very stuck on this subject
 So my strongly speaking against it indicates my involvement in it? What school of psychology is that? Aren't you afraid that people will reverse everything you say and turn it against you? Come on! I posted enough controversial stuff worth arguing against to make it unnessary to manufacture one.
 BTW, statistics does not apply to individual cases - only representative populations. Can't rely on them either to assess intelligence of individual person nor likelihood of a terrorist attack. Have to use fundamental data for that.


Eagler: miko
you are way off in left field blaming the dead for their deaths
 I am sorry if you've got such an impression. I am blaming the terrorists for their deaths - like everybody else does. I am also blaming their surviving friends, "mates", relatives, educators and government for encouraging rather than dissuading them from becoming easy helpless targets.

 I truly deplore that my posts come out as insencitive - especially towards victims. I guess I've dealt with casualties enough to quickly go through that nerve-wrecking sorrow phase straight to the "what the heck has happened and how it could have been prevented and what we do now..." part. Part of psychological defence - not to dwell on a loss but try to be constructive. I am really quite a sensitive person. Would have made a good mercenary otherwise.

 I just believe stongly in personal responcibility and "I am my brother's keeper" view. The world is a dangerous place out there or even here. Ignorance and carelessness or reliance on abstract "rights" are not good excuses for letting your close ones or yourselves to get killed unwittingly.
 There are times when we do send people in the path of danger - for duty, education, out of necessity. There are times when we take unnecessary risks ourselves because we must of because hiding from danger all the time would make our lives depressing hell - or just becasue of abundance of hormones.


Vulcan: Show me the statistics...
 Any place that has scary statistic of terrorist acts against foreign tourists is probably not a good target. Hence the place that had it coming was the one where statistics showed low probability. Is that convincing to you? Apparently it was to the terrorists.


 miko

[Vulcan]

Thank you for just proving yourself to be a true village idiot. On one hand you say Bali is a dangerous place to be and tourists shouldn't be there, on the other you say its not and thats why it got bombed.

LOL, jesus Miko go to school or something, I'm actually beginning to feel sorry for you.

Originally posted by miko2d

Vulcan: Show me the statistics...
 Any place that has scary statistic of terrorist acts against foreign tourists is probably not a good target. Hence the place that had it coming was the one where statistics showed low probability. Is that convincing to you? Apparently it was to the terrorists.


 miko

[Dowding (Work)]

Amongst all that tripe you posted in the last few posts, only one passage really is worth replying to.

But if you did not try to warn them because you were ignorant of danger or did not care or underestimated it - you failed your friends and now are venting your frustration on me for mentioning sex or being undertutored in geography.

No. You've got it sooooo wrong. The reason why I 'vented' at you was simply the offhand way you brought a COMPLETELY irrelevant subject like child sex tourism into the equation. It was stupid. It was inane. It was offensive. Let me highlight it:

In my view the bomb blasts that killed them were just symptoms. The real cause of their death was stupidity, ignorance and wishfull thinking.

If you want to visit a muslim country and have fun there, join the Marines. You may not get to enjoy as many underage asian prostitutes, but at least you will be the one doing most of the blowing up...

And:

Care to try a web search on "australian" and "child sex tourism"? I did - and it will have to be a while till my revolt wears off.  

Care to try the same search but without "australian"? You will get mostly the same results. What the heck is wrong with that country - Australia? Pedophilia as major national export?

No amount of apologetic back-tracking will erase those comments or justify them. Your meaning was very well understood. I stand by my earlier comments.

[-tronski-]

I am so repulsed by you and your 'informed' comments that I've considered my unusual short sharp responses to be sufficient ,so I've left the more reasoned responses to be stated by Spook and others.

However...

I am sorry if you've got such an impression. I am blaming the terrorists for their deaths - like everybody else does. I am also blaming their surviving friends, "mates", relatives, educators and government for encouraging rather than dissuading them from becoming easy helpless targets.

I can't recall you blaming the terrorists at all...more like westerners for even being there, and all those deserving Australian pedophiles....we export it rememeber?
AND then blaming us, the friends and families for wanting to live our lives normally, as we always have.
as Spook said:

It is obvious Miko that you know nothing of Bali, the Australian people and nothing about the Balinese.

I truly deplore that my posts come out as insencitive - especially towards victims. I guess I've dealt with casualties enough to quickly go through that nerve-wrecking sorrow phase straight to the "what the heck has happened and how it could have been prevented and what we do now..." part. Part of psychological defence - not to dwell on a loss but try to be constructive. I am really quite a sensitive person. Would have made a good mercenary otherwise.

I doubt any part of that is true.  If you think being 'constructive' is anything you've posted and then have the gall to try to sit back and wiggle you finger at us and say nyah nyah - you all should've known better.

I just believe stongly in personal responcibility and "I am my brother's keeper" view. The world is a dangerous place out there or even here. Ignorance and carelessness or reliance on abstract "rights" are not good excuses for letting your close ones or yourselves to get killed unwittingly.

Australia, apart from being the world's best child sex export/importers, has always stood up for it's own "rights". We always have, and always will.

I would not spend a penny of my taxes or risk the life of a single american soldier to ensure the "right" of an australian tourist to have a party in a muslim country.

 
We've bleed in every major conflict since the Boer War and earn't our place in the world - nothing was given to us that we haven't had to earn.
Australians aren't into our right to do this or our right to do that and we sure as diddly don't believe we have the given "right" to risk our lives just so we can just party.
But we obviously refused to live our lives in fear like you do you diddlying worm.

It is obvious Miko that you know nothing of Bali, the Australian people and nothing about the Balinese

No amount of apologetic back-tracking will erase those comments or justify them. Your meaning was very well understood. I stand by my earlier comments.

As do I..

Tronsky

[Vulcan]

Slight correction, before I mean't these guys : http://www.peacecorps.gov/indexnf.cfm



not the US Foreign Service

[SC-Sp00k]

I might also add Miko (as im sitting here bored at Midnight waiting for numbers in the MA to improve), I protect people every working day.  Ive never stood around waiting for a pat on the head as reward and I find the general majority dont care and in some cases appear not to want me to do it at all, but I do, because thats my job.

If theres one thing ive learnt, is that not all people want to be saved.  This country has a good rapport with Bali.  Our people do not live in the environment of fear that may encompass the average American tourist.

We may not be loved as Westerners, but most in the world, love us as Australians.  Hence apart from the worlds worst troublespots, we generally go where we please. Common sense withstanding.

Also, in response to American Soldiers being put at risk for the dumb Aussie to stupid to know better. (variation of words employed).  I would hope that no American Soldier, sailor or Airman is ever put in that position.

But I know when Australian Soldiers are asked to stand alongside your own, they dont ask why there protecting Americans. They just go do it.  This country has its share of bleeding heart anti-American policy liberals but they are not representative of this country and its friendship with your own.

I do not know of a time, exception being WW2, when we have asked you to stand by us and fight. (Perhaps Timor in a Peacekeeping role).  But I also cannot think of a time when your country has asked Australian Men and Women to place themselves in harms way and for us ever to refused.

Why Bali happened is irrelevant to me. What it means is important and often seems to be lacking in understanding when speaking of Terrorism on this BBS.

The US, Britain, Canada and the poor dumb schmucks the Aussies and others, are all in it together. Our Alliance not only forged in friendship now but in blood.

None of us need to be fighting each other.  There certainly appears to be more than enough out there in the world to fight as it it.

At least you have the luxury of distance from your enemies.  We have 7000,000+ muslim extremists on our doorstep. We may well ask your soldiers to shed blood and lose their lives in order to defend us.  We have done it before in the Pacific War.

Rest assured that beside them, will be Australians. As it always has been and any blood spilt on our side will be shared.

[miko2d]

Vulcan: On one hand you say Bali is a dangerous place to be and tourists shouldn't be there, on the other you say its not and thats why it got bombed.

 Which words exactly made you think I said that? You are just imagining things. I never said Bali was not dangerous. I admited it had nice statistics, but It's you who foolishly equate nice "statistics" with abcense of danger, not me.

Who says Bali wasn't safe? Show me the statistics dickhead or STFU.

 See - it's you who insist that Bali was safe based on "statistics"! No wonder you believed so since you tend to STFU any expert and who asess threat based on real factors - like the ability of terrorists to drive a carload of explosive unimpeded.
 Your argument that Bali was not dangerous is nonsensical - there was explosion there. Explosions do not happen in places where there is no danger of explosion. Refusing to see the danger does not negate it.

Vulcan:If the Washington Sniper reads the AH BBS I got $100 here for Miko's head.
...I think hes a mental retard who has no value to offer the human race.

 Come on, baby - you just love the fact that a terrible tragedy happened to your friends. That allows you to act all hauty and demand sympathy and no one can criticise you or your country and respond to any of you inane arguments without sounding insensitive. You can call people names becasue you pretend to be distraught.
 I mean, it's clear - you offered $100 for my head for allegedely slighting the victims but you have not offered a penny for the heads of terrorists that actiually killed them. You probably believe they have a lot of "value to offer the human race".
 Or maybe it's guilt speaking? Maybe you encouraged your hapless friends to visit the "safe" Bali? You still clame it safe. Maybe the terrorists should offer you comission for baiting the trap? You are a freaking terrorist collaborator.

 As for your personal remarks...,  does your nick "vulcan" mean that you are likely to erupt at the slightest provocation? Or are you a trekkie? In that case you should work more on controlling your temper. He-he...


Dowding: No amount of apologetic back-tracking will erase those comments or justify them. Your meaning was very well understood. I stand by my earlier comments.

 I only offered an appology because I was tactless this time, not incorrect - and apparently distracted people from real discussion in this thread. Do not insinuate that I attempted to "back-track" or retract those comments.

No. You've got it sooooo wrong. The reason why I 'vented' at you was simply the offhand way...

 Oh, yea? So you are really more upset that some guy possibly showed disrespect for your dead friends than you allowing them to get killed? I see your priorities. They are pretty much the same as Vulcan's. Nitpicking my literary style is more important to you than assessing the real danger facing westerners in the third world countries. What a horror! I was "irrelevant"! Just look up "Denial" in a book of psychology. You are guilty, deal with it.

 Anyway, if you want insensitive talk, you do not have to imagine it on my part. Here it goes:
 You expect me to feel sorry for a  bunch of tourists partying and spending money in enemy's country I while we here in NY are waiting for that briefcase nuke or smallpox to arrive?

 You expect me to feel distraught imagining my firends, relatives, myself in place of the victims? That is why the terror of WTC was so acute - becasue we all have close ones and ourselves in danger here working in office buildings and flying in airplanes. Guess what - none of my friends or relatives could have gotten themselves murdered in a nighclub of a hostile country - not if I had any say in it.


-tronski-: I can't recall you blaming the terrorists at all...more like westerners for even being there

 Blaming the terrorists? What for? To make them change their way? I doubt many of them read this board. Murder is their nature - like a rabid dog or a poison snake. You shoot one or get out of it's way. Definitely get close ones out of it's way.

 By the way, let's do a show of hands - who among the present here actually ever fought muslim militants with rifle in hand?



 I seriously doubt that your hyppocritical "blaming" is ever as effective against terrorists as my AK-47 or PK-T were.
 BTW I only use the term "terrorist" to humor you dumb shmucks. Those people are not terrorists. They are enemy soldiers waging total war.
 Have you ever served in a military? I'd guess anyone who did and was proud of doing so would have put it into his profile. I guess you never planned on dealing with terrorists beyong "blaming" them.

AND then blaming us, the friends and families for wanting to live our lives normally, as we always have.

 That is exactly what I do! I blame you! You want to live you lives "normally" in a world which is not even close to normal - so you live in denial and end up waving your friends to unnecessary deaths.

 We are in mortal danger here. You want to "live normally", stay out of the combat zone. I would not be surprised if more potatoho.., er nightclubs get blown up in Bali by terrorists. Or our B-52s pay a visit to demolish what remains of that source of currency for enemy's economy. Tourists better not be there when it happens.

If you think being 'constructive' is anything you've posted and then have the gall to try to sit back and wiggle you finger at us and say nyah nyah - you all should've known better.
 You expected me to deny that? Guess what - that's exactly what I ment: You all should've known better!
 That was actually not why I joined this thread - I though that part was obvious. I joined it to note that harm to tourist economy was not a backfire but planned effect of the terror act - and fallacy of estimation of danger based on prior occurence rather than closeness of and viciousness of enemy.

But we obviously refused to live our lives in fear like you do you diddlying worm.
 That's what it was? "Damn the torpedoes! Bring in more beer! Give me party or give me death!" - not "we hope we are so inoffencive and out of the way that nobody cares to waste ammo on us?" or "what World War III? We do not read newspapers!".
 Oh, you are so brave... So you are going to Bali? With family? Take Vulcan with you.






 Sp00k, now you are turning around and getting all reasonable on me!
 If Australia ever asks for US help fighting whoever, I hope this country will furnish it without hesitation. It would be an honor for me or my son to fight alongside australian soldiers.
 It's fighting for someone's right to party or "live normally" or even "buy cheap oil" that I don't like.

The US, Britain, Canada and the poor dumb schmucks the Aussies and others, are all in it together. Our Alliance not only forged in friendship now but in blood.
 If only more people understood that - even here in US!
 I wouldn't count much on europeans though -  most likely another french will write a best-selling book how FBI and Mossad or aussies themselves blew up Bali and that will give them an excuse to stay on the sidelines and spend money on welfare state rather than defence.

None of us need to be fighting each other. There certainly appears to be more than enough out there in the world to fight as it it.
 P.S. I actually was compelled to go back and delete some nice inflamatory paragraphs in my responce to Dowding here which you could have found (even more) offencive to australians.
 I strongly urge you not to continue reading this thread further - I will try to refrain from answering that trio of hyppocritical handsomehunkes and making spectacle of myself in the process but I cannot guarantee that.
 Regardless of anything posted here, I would trust my back to most aussies any day. Let's leave it at that. Keep your friends safe!


 miko

[Vulcan]

I do feel sorry for you Miko, I suspect you are holed up somewhere, with no real life stuck forever in your 80's war memories, angry at everyone, blaming everyone else for your miserable existance.

I understand why you're so bitter now, I understand why you take such pleasure in piping up everytime an Islamic group murders innocents. I see your twisted "I told you so, we should have finished them off in Afghanistan but the USA helped them defeat us and now look whats happened" logic.

Seek professional help or you will never be happy in your life.

Dowding, Spook, Tronski, time to lay off this guy - hes got serious personal issues. to you guys and I hope your mates made it out.

[Dowding (Work)]

As much as it pains me to leave the absolute crap he just posted unanswered, I think you are probably right Vulcan. My friends are OK and are apparently in Sydney as I write this.

[-tronski-]

Have you ever served in a military?

Actually yes...I don't use it as a crutch to add weight to my arguments.

As much as it pains me to leave the absolute crap he just posted unanswered, I think you are probably right Vulcan. My friends are OK and are apparently in Sydney as I write this.

Agreed Vulcan, trust a kiwi to come up with a good idea!
Good to hear Dowding, so are mine (sorry to dissapoint some people).

 Tronsky

[Eagler]

Originally posted by miko2d
Explosions do not happen in places where there is no danger of explosion. Refusing to see the danger does not negate it.

huh?

give it up, you were wrong with the angle/content of your initial post, refused to admit it and back track, instead are happy digging your hole deeper

[miko2d]

Vulcan: I do feel sorry for you Miko, I suspect you are holed up somewhere
 Not really. I enjoy my life, not nearly holed up. I would still go to Manhattan as often as I used to (though with a gas mask handy) but I have a baby now. I am not much afraid to die - just would be embarassmed to die of stupidity, like some hapless tourists. I understand being blown up in Israel studying historic sites, but partying in Indonesia?

I see your twisted "I told you so, we should have finished them off in Afghanistan but the USA helped them defeat us and now look whats happened" logic.
 Oh, no - quite the opposite. I was a brainwashed and ignorant slave-soldier of an expancive dictatorial regime trying to grab as much as it can and making us comit untold atrocities in the process. It was great that americans kicked our ass. We certainly deserved that and more. Not just that getting into a trouble with those insane fanatics was a bad decision for USSR - we fully deserved to be nuked just for our evilness and danger to humanity. Also, if you think that even then I hated poor afghans any more than most my "comrades" or officers, you would be wrong. Army life in soviet union was tough - war or not.
 I can't believe americans were so stupid as not to nuke us in early 50s when we did not have nuclear bombs ourselves. Would have spared everybody a lot of grief.
 I believe it would have been to the benefit of americans to support democratic secular fraction of afgan freedom-fighters rather than most rabid religious fanatics. Those were easier to start but impossible to stop.
 Also any involvement with such religious regimes or plain dictators is bad for US, despite cheap oil - especially since there is no political need to oppose the soviet block.

 See - I am very consistent. Freedom is good, fanaticism and dictatorship is bad. Even if they are american friends for now and good tourist spots.

 Thanks for your concern anyway.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Explosions do not happen in places where there is no danger of explosion. Refusing to see the danger does not negate it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eagler: huh?
 That means anyone with half a brain could have figured out that numerous indonesian fanatical muslim militants had desire and opportunity to blow up those places. Their clerics called them "sinful nightclubs" and worse. They just took their sweet time getting to it. The danger was always there. People just ignored it - by choice or ignorance.

 miko