Author Topic: The Hispano (Read 1325 times)

hitech · « **Reply #60 on:** October 14, 2002, 05:31:18 PM »

Fatz, what does lethality have to do with convergance? One is nothing more than a balistic path, the other is what each bullet does when it impacts. Changes in paths just effect how many bullets could hit, but do not impact lethality.

HiTech

Karnak · « **Reply #61 on:** October 14, 2002, 06:12:17 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by fats
--- Karnak: ---
Convergence works just like it did in WWII.

If you think about it, there is no way HTC could make it perform differently.
--- end ---

Of course it could be made to work in multiple different ways yet appear to deliver the effect you are expecting ( varying lethality with range? ). Thought you were a coder too?

lethality being the lethality of the whole gun package of a plane and not a single gun in the set

// fats

If that were the case then the path of the shots, and what caused hits and misses would not match the expected results with a given convergence setting. I would be able to get hits with my 250 yard, wing mounted guns, from the Spit as I would from the nose mounted, 650 yard guns on the Mossie at 800 yards, but the Mossie's would simply be more leathal. This is demostratably not how it works in AH. You can watch the flight path of your tracers and if the target does not intercect with the bullet stream, no hit occurs. Try it offline by taking a Spit, setting its convergence as close as possible and the making long range shots on the drones, or better yet, the target.

I'm in Software QA, not programming, but I do understand the basics. There simply isn't any way for HTC to have done both what you describe and what the game displays. Besides, why bother? Convergence is an easy thing to program, much easier than complicated leathality tables.

Ring · « **Reply #62 on:** October 14, 2002, 07:11:13 PM »

ALL the german 20mm from the 109e4 out uses the "Minengeschoss" round... wether its the mgff-m or the 151 the shell still has the same war head... and that is WAY more powerfull then ANY 20mm hispano "2 to 3 times more HE filler"...
20mm Minengeschoss with 20g PETN 718mps 92.0g

the hispano had beter armor penatration with AP but when shooting planes with HE that meens nothing..

the only plane used a mgff was the early 109e3

fats · « **Reply #63 on:** October 14, 2002, 10:01:06 PM »

HT,

I meant the lethality of the plane's whole gun package and not a single gun nor single shot.

This was my reasoning leaving out ability to penetrate armor to cause structural damage and other factors I might not even be aware of. When the pattern the bullets strike at for a burst is larger than the size of the element you calculate hit points for, you're not delivering maximum possible damage to that location. The smaller the pattern size gets until hit element size is reached the higher your hit percentage will be against that element and it will fail faster.

Examining the damage system from outside as a black box it has 2 states: enabled or disabled. If a 1 second burst at convergence - 200m doesn't disable a location but does at convergence, then saying that convergence has to do with lethality isn't too far stretch of imagination?

// fats

fats · « **Reply #64 on:** October 14, 2002, 10:09:17 PM »

Ring,

Fw 190A-5 still used MG FF at its outter wing positions. Or did you mean Bf 109 specifically? In that case I belive Bf 109F-1 still used MG FF cannons.

// fats

Ring · « **Reply #65 on:** October 14, 2002, 11:03:12 PM »

all the ff's were converted to use ff-m's
most books just list all the guns as ff's.. but 1/2 threw the e3's all ff guns were retro fited to fire the mgff-m shell

Wotan · « **Reply #66 on:** October 14, 2002, 11:25:40 PM »

they were mgff/m fats m = Minengeschoss

Glasses · « **Reply #67 on:** October 15, 2002, 12:43:09 AM »

or Like i call them Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmm Geschoss,that's why you see the nice explosions in WW2 pork online

Tony Williams · « **Reply #68 on:** October 15, 2002, 02:04:09 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ring
ALL the german 20mm from the 109e4 out uses the "Minengeschoss" round... wether its the mgff-m or the 151 the shell still has the same war head... and that is WAY more powerfull then ANY 20mm hispano "2 to 3 times more HE filler"...
20mm Minengeschoss with 20g PETN 718mps 92.0g

the hispano had beter armor penatration with AP but when shooting planes with HE that meens nothing..

the only plane used a mgff was the early 109e3

It wasn't quite as simple as that. The RAF tested the M-Geschoss against the Hispano and concluded that although the M-Geschoss had more blast effect (which made it more effective in some circumstances), the Hispano HE had more penetration and caused more fragment damage (bigger chunks of steel from the shell casing) which made it more effective in other circumstances. The Hispano HEI had around 10-11g HE, the M-Geschoss 19-20.

In any case, the Luftwaffe mixed ordinary HE-T and API in with the M-Geschoss in the ammo belt.

The Bf 110 also used the MG-FF until 1940/41. I believe that all MG-FFs were probably converted to MG-FFM by early in 1941, although I have no firm evidence for this. However, as the MG-FF and MG-FFM ammunition was not interchangeable, there was a strong incentive to standardise. It is difficult to be certain of the date as German sources often just say "MG-FF" when it is clear that MG-FFM is meant.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

RRAM · « **Reply #69 on:** October 15, 2002, 02:16:55 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by hitech
Ram, we told you that your "backward" firing guns was NOT a hack. You were trying to prove one type of cheat, unlimited ammo, implied the other and it wasn't.

Hummm, that's not what I recall about it, HT, I do remember that I sent Pyro (among other things) 3 films in a zip file, one with unlimited 30mm ammo in a 109G10 in the MA, other with unlimited rockets in a P51D or Typhoon (cant recall) in the TA , other with a backwards firing 190 in the MA. All of them were sent to me so I could send them to you, and so I did.

I never tried to prove anything on my own. I was told "hey RAM I've got several films of a hacked FE flying in the MA, would you send them to HTC"?. I said I would. But those films were not taken by me.

BTW I was seriously critized by my OWN community (spanish) for not pressing more for the issue. Pyro told me to stay silent and say nothing to anyone, and that your way to deal with hacking is the one it is. I accepted it because it made sense, but I accepted it at the said cost :Everyone who knew about those films (the guy who made them spread the word very fast) thought I would start a flaming thread in the general forums with them, and when I didn't...well.

You know, is a darned example of "Damned if you do, damned if you don't"

.

BTW I'm not putting in doubt your tactic to deal with those problems (hacking). In fact and in the long term, I think that passive protection is better and less resource and time-intensive than active program-protection.
I also understand perfectly that you don't want to talk about it in the forums. That was why I didn't post anything about it, and that was the reason you never heard me complaining about cheating after that

.

RRAM · « **Reply #70 on:** October 15, 2002, 02:23:19 AM »

BTW HT, one question that may solve the example I posted some days ago.

Impact flashes shown in a FE mean individual shot impacts or multiple bullet impacts?.

I mean, if I impact on a plane and I see just one flash is it one hit or can it be several bullet hits?. Because if it can be several hits then the destroyed tail with one ping could be a perfectly good outcome.