Author Topic: HTC, you plan on doing anything about this?  (Read 873 times)

Offline Wilfrid

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HTC, you plan on doing anything about this?
« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2002, 06:04:25 AM »
So Zamo you're saying

its the blind...

leading the blonde?

If I'm getting ya correctly.

Offline ZAMO

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HTC, you plan on doing anything about this?
« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2002, 06:15:29 AM »
Wilfrid!!!!!:p

You got it :)....smell the flowers while you can ;) .

Salute bud :) :) :)

Offline Kweassa

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HTC, you plan on doing anything about this?
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2002, 08:12:03 AM »
So tell me ye followers of "natural balance".

 If things balance out naturally how'd you explain when it becomes to the point of disgustingly unnatural imbalance??
 
 Economists stopped believeing in the "invisible hand" crap 150 years ago. Winning is the ultimate goal of competition. All the perkies and enjoyment of chasing down the few, broken resistances come along when you decide tag along with the winners. People don't follow their natural conscience. They follow the smell of victory.

 Guess what happens then? Something like this.

 Either the Bishops and the Knights having been doing a) some really secret active recruitment projects..... or b) newcomers look around, realize there's a country that gets always ganged on, and decide to not go there.

 This is becoming intolerable. Stop talking "ebb and flow" crap, because the sea of AH smells of dead waters that stopped flowing for a long long time.

 US Prime Time at West Coast(10:45 AM in the far east)

Offline Widewing

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HTC, you plan on doing anything about this?
« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2002, 09:12:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan


Might want to check an atlas. Besides the Soviets "liberated" far more of Europe and paid a much heavier price then the US.


Wrong choice of wording. Liberate implies that liberty was restored or provided. What the Soviets did was substitute one type of tyranny for another. Sort of like swapping heart disease for a brain tumor.

However, you are certainly correct that KYridgeRunner is clearly lacking in education and common sense. Not to mention utterly devoid class.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline phaetn

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HTC, you plan on doing anything about this?
« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2002, 10:02:12 AM »
Kweassa wrote:
Quote

So tell me ye followers of "natural balance".

If things balance out naturally how'd you explain when it becomes to the point of disgustingly unnatural imbalance??

Economists stopped believeing in the "invisible hand" crap 150 years ago.


Really?  Not trying to be a contrarian, but I thought there was still quite a large group that believes in the "invisible hand", markets devoid of regulation, and unadulterated capitalism.  Not saying that's what exists, but a lot of people certainly seem for it -- governments get elected on the basis of less interference and letting markets do their thing.   Isn't that what privatization and deregulation of industries is all about?  I only took a handful of economics courses at university (words are my thing, not numbers :) ) so if I'm in error, please enlighten me.

Anyhoo...  I'm not necessarily arguing that there will be a "natural balance."  It may or may not balance out, that's for the players to decide.  

What I am suggesting is that imposing artificial barriers to entry (i.e. you can't select the team you want because it's "locked out") is very negative.  While it's needed in some areas (uberplane availability, for instance) on a country level in the MA there's little tangible benefit to doing it, yet a considerable downside (alienating players).  

If the player community feels like supporting a side, they will.  If they feel like abandoning it, they'll do that, too.  There's little reason for HTC to exercise control over it.

Once they're unleashed, online games are less a construct of the developers that create them then they are of the communities that inhabit them.  The former is just code, the latter is the lifeblood and very essence of a game.

Cheers,
phaetn
« Last Edit: October 23, 2002, 11:22:23 AM by phaetn »

Offline Arfann

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Re: Re: Re: Numbers
« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2002, 10:56:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by KYridgeRunner




Ya, Fairz I see you as the kind that when the Nazi's came in to their country would join right in with the ol' goose stepin'  crew then when the US came in and liberated you, you were the first on the street  to start waving the american flag.   In other words you switch to what ever side is winning.  

We may be a small band but we stick together.  It comes from being an AMERICAN some people like you will never under stand.

In other words talking to you is a waste of time, just like what  George Carlin said about wrestling and I quote;
"I know wrestling is fake and I don't waste my time arguing about it."


:p


Better break out the KY, KY!!  You gonna need it, boy!

Offline Rude

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HTC, you plan on doing anything about this?
« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2002, 11:50:04 AM »
Whiner

Offline Fariz

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Re: Re: Re: Numbers
« Reply #52 on: October 23, 2002, 12:08:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by KYridgeRunner

Ya, Fairz I see you as the kind that when the Nazi's came in to their country would join right in with the ol' goose stepin'  crew then when the US came in and liberated you, you were the first on the street  to start waving the american flag.   In other words you switch to what ever side is winning.  

We may be a small band but we stick together.  It comes from being an AMERICAN some people like you will never under stand.

In other words talking to you is a waste of time, just like what  George Carlin said about wrestling and I quote;
"I know wrestling is fake and I don't waste my time arguing about it."
:p


Its a strong insult, considering how many of my relatives died during the ww2

Offline g00bd0g

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The advantages!
« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2002, 05:33:38 PM »
I chose rooks initially because it's the better chess piece IMHO. I have never felt the need to change as I figured the sides would even out eventually. Now maybe they won't actually even out but here's the actual advantages to being on the smaller side.

1. Easier to find and engage enemies. I am constantly engaged in combat and I am consistently ranked in the top 100 for my kills/hr. For me kills/hr is a large portion of how I measure fun in this game.

2. Smaller more tightly knit groups. I am maybe not all that social but I can recognize the "regulars" and often hang around these guys and together we can mop up the skies. Taking on 8 or 10 enemies with 2 or 3 guys and winning is a riot!

3. The satisfaction of kicking bellybutton against terrible odds :p

4. You're a ROOK! I can't imagine being weenie Knight or Bishop. Everyone knows it takes balls of steel to fly Rooks :)

Offline Kweassa

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HTC, you plan on doing anything about this?
« Reply #54 on: October 23, 2002, 07:14:25 PM »
Quote
Not saying that's what exists, but a lot of people certainly seem for it -- governments get elected on the basis of less interference and letting markets do their thing. Isn't that what privatization and deregulation of industries is all about?


 and it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out what the consequences of it are. Properity in charts, diagrams and stock markets, but misery in real life... People have come to accept a lot of things that would be totally untolerable as "conditions of human life" were it 50 years ago after going in the global scale rendered resistances in each countries virtually helpless. But anyhow, that's not the real point..


Quote
that's for the players to decide.


 This, is the real point.


Quote
What I am suggesting is that imposing artificial barriers to entry (i.e. you can't select the team you want because it's "locked out") is very negative. While it's needed in some areas (uberplane availability, for instance) on a country level in the MA there's little tangible benefit to doing it, yet a considerable downside (alienating players).


 Why would it be negative? Why would it "alienate" anyone? The only real "alienating" done around here is by the MA folk being classifed as( as seen in Mandoble's joke) "Rooks" and "Non-Rooks".

 The AH board has seen its shares of light hearted whinings and complaints about numbers before. However, it never was quite this serious. Almost every week or two people start complaining about the numbers, and they are all from the Rooks. Sure, its a possibility the people who joined the Rooks were born butt-heads and somehow gathered in the losing country. But my bet is on something serious is starting to show up, and people who are not involved(because they are not on the receiving side) are purposely looking down on it, trying to ignore it.

 Complaints start piling up because players in the Rooks are starting to feel that it is unworthy to fly as a Rook at all, squads and players are in the exodus. Some squads which I've seen migrate among the three countries stopped coming to the Rooks at all. Because, the game and the gamers lost the sense of balance which cannot be re-established without artificial methods.

 Mind you, this is a game. A method of play which tries to give all the participants the joy and fun of being in it, as much as being the winner. Nobody wants to play a rigged game. And thats exactly what is happening to AH - a rigged game where the perpetual losers try to find meaning in valiant resistance, then get tired of it, and start leaving the side.

 You don't pit 9 baseball players against 3, nor do you pit adult players against little league and call it a "game". . Only after the sides are equal to some point it can be called a game where the losers will try their best to accept their loss graciously. As it is, each reset, each loss is becoming nothing but purely infuriating. How would anyone not be?


Quote
If the player community feels like supporting a side, they will. If they feel like abandoning it, they'll do that, too. There's little reason for HTC to exercise control over it.


 This is very wrong. The choice is up to a person as long as it is within boundaries of gameplay which can provide mutual enjoyment. Step outside that boundary some referee has to  smack people back inside - HTC are providers of the game, and they are also care takers of the game.

 MA conditions are within their grasp and up to my knowledge they've never shown any signs of giving up on it. As long as the power is in their hands, the duties are also in their hands to see that the game they have created which all people enjoy with enthusiasm stay that way. If some issues turn up that would damage balance to the game, theu correct it - such as in the way N1K2s were reevaluated and the C-hogs were perked. Another issue has turned up, and it doesn't seem it would go away anytime soon.

 Natural balance sets itself when the numbers are small, when people know almost every other people and their personal ties with each community members are strong enough to whisper in their conscience "balance the numbers.." AH has grown out of that stage. Because the numbers grew, so should management.

Quote
Once they're unleashed, online games are less a construct of the developers that create them then they are of the communities that inhabit them. The former is just code, the latter is the lifeblood and very essence of a game.


 So, when the essence starts to stink, who's gonna set it right? Do rotten eggs just disappear in to thin air? Or does someone have to grab it and throw it out in the dumpster? The community was never just and never impartial. Before, the numbers in AH were homey and small that noone realized it. However, the people in the receiving side of this foul play are realizing it now once AH has grown up.

 When that community starts intentionally ignoring the factors which constitue a fair and enjoyable game, who's gonna set it right? The community will right itself?? Like a camel can go through a needle's eye?

Offline bj229r

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HTC, you plan on doing anything about this?
« Reply #55 on: October 23, 2002, 07:46:15 PM »
re: "if ya don't like it..switch"  (or something thereabouts)  THAT is the most GUTless thing to do. I dont begrudge any long-time loyal country-members to be loyal to their fellow country-men...Those are the guys who have been leaving posts here to that effect. But what hacks me off are the WEASELS (who DONT leave posts to this issue) who state some BS reason for leaving Rookland when what they REALLY want is easier kills---Nits and Bish didnt get all these guys over past few months from WW2....I fly Rook..(and die damn near EVERY time..heeh) because these human-punching bags are my friends..and its pretty fluff'n shallow to bail and join the growing hoard that we must wade thru every night. ( Having said that, I spose it would be ok if ya only hit the other country)
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers

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Offline Masherbrum

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HTC, you plan on doing anything about this?
« Reply #56 on: October 23, 2002, 08:07:44 PM »
Tactically,  the Rooks are screwed.   So Urchin, explain to me if you are Bish, why would you attack Knight over Rook?  You all know damn well what I am saying, OF COURSE you are going to attack the lesser country in terms of numbers, you're STUPID NOT TOO!   I don't know when you fly but is 80% of the time, Bish and Knight on Rook.  

This thread is now about Fariz, now littered with insults (the insults are a prime example of flared stupidity) towards each other.  

These attitudes I thrive on shoot your Bish ad Knight tulips down with either myself or a couple of others defending and attacking Typhoid raids where the numbers were 15:2 to start.   Eventually that attack blossomed to about 25Bish and 8 Rooks.  We stomped it.  DEAD in its tracks.  Rooks do defend the best but when you only work with limited number, what do you do?  

The thing I find funny is that after all of the stupid, waste of time, useless posts to these two separate threads (xBat's being the other one).  One thing is the same.  If it were Bish having the numbers problems they would have typed the same toejam about the same stuff.  xBat was at least willing to step in front of the bullet.   Funny thing is, he is a Bish.  The rest would rather think that they are "the toejam" and put stupid comments on this thread that have no bearing at a thread  .

As for the others it is easy to mock when you're kicking us while we are down, that I can live with for now.  What I also enjoy is being outnumbered and shooting your tulips down.

Bring on the BS boys, I know you want to.  

BUT, I am done with this.  It's already hijacked, there is no validity to get bogged down with insults.   So your comments will go unanswered.

Karaya2
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Offline SKurj

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too long
« Reply #57 on: October 23, 2002, 11:09:25 PM »
Its a tough problem, that has always been around in one form or another in all these mass fly sims...

calling for even teams works in smaller games (10-20 players) but doesn't in huge games such as AH.  And squads tend to complicate things (one guy might swap sides to even things but unlikely he would if the squad won't)

So how can it be resolved...

If HT was to put a limit on max players per side, 1/3 of the arena capacity...  Well, it would only be effective during peak times likely, and if peak times didn't come close to capacity it may not work then either.

Set a max per side based on current numbers in the arena... well then the squad whines would start.  It could really mess with squad nights....

I really think that perhaps the last suggestion would work in time, I mean the players would get used to it, tho the time limit on side switching would have to be removed so that squads could reassemble asap.  

I sent an email off to kesmai once upon a time about this very issue in AW... Well did I get a nasty gram in reply from Mage lol.
You can imagine what he said...

Incentives for players to join the outnumbered side... well this one has been beaten to death on the boards, and I've yet to see a suggestion that would work...  

We know most players aren't concerned with perks, perhaps a tiny percentage would switch if perk modifiers were in place.

I've seen other online games give increased ammo effectiveness and armor to the outnumbered.. but errm of course that would be unacceptable in AH  (hmm why did I even type that)

Free perk rides for the outnumbered.. well if perhaps the gangbangers didn't recieve the regular amount of perks for killing them....

Here's a little idea... the outnumbered team gets the new Tiger, and the osty.  Everyone else doesn't...  well that wouldn't make a whole lotta difference...

Guys if you want side balancing.. and I am not against it at all, yas just have to come up with an idea that works!

Hey... how about $.25 discount per day if you fly for the outnumbered team!! lol... mebbe HT would send me a nasty gram for that one +)


SKurj

Offline Kweassa

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HTC, you plan on doing anything about this?
« Reply #58 on: October 24, 2002, 12:47:42 AM »
"Enlisting" is one solution.

 In the last days of a month, when a new tour is about to start, there should be a system which asks players in which country they will fight next tour. Squads will be enlisted as a whole - the squad CO having the vote, and non-squad affiliated players individually.

 The choices will be open up to a certain point, but when the enlisted numbers exceed a certain given balance status(for example, lets say one country becomes over 40% of total registered people), the country which the most people have enlisted in will be out of the choice. If it becomes unbalanced that the total enlistments of the highest two countries are over 75% in total numbers, the only choice for a squad or individual would be to enlist as the lowest country in numbers.

 The enlistment will not be withdrawn, and you will be confined to that country for the tour. There could also be some variable options,  for instance, taking into account the time zones.. the time zone will be divided into four largest time zones - Far east, European, US East and US West, and perhaps the balance ratio can follow according to time zones. When you say you mainly fly in US West time zones, the restriction in Enlistment choices can be set according to the registered numbers of US West time zone players only.

 Anyhow, there are a  lot of possibilities. Downsides and advantages. However, one thing is certain, balance will never set itself, and the following situation IS NOT GOING TO NATURALLY FLUCTUATE. AH has grown out of the stage where one~two squads rotating per tour can effect numbers balance. There are people hoarding to one side(or, neglecting one side) for a reason, and they are going to stay there.

 Unless the reasons are eliminated(which is impossible), the only option left is to continue mocking the Rooks and gangbang/reset them at will, and let these hostilities between countries grow... or, admit there is a problem, and we need help with that. Because the community is unable to correct itself, we need help from the people who have enough power to correct us - HTC.

 And that is exactly what we Rooks request. We need help from the HTC.

Offline Hussein

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HTC, you plan on doing anything about this?
« Reply #59 on: October 24, 2002, 02:26:18 AM »
Heh I saw this problem already 6 months ago. IMO one of the best suggestions to balance the sides would be score multiplier for the smallest country. Make that score increase in direct proportion to the numbers advantage of the biggest enemy.

Many players in MA play for score.. So that would mean the most ambitious players would switch and do a good thing because of thier own greedyness. IMO it would work great.