Time for the PRO-GUN lobby to put their money where their mouth is!

[Dune]

Violence: As English As Tea and Crumpets 1

" London has become like New York at its worst, say police"

In a pub in the south London suburb of Croydon on Saturday evening ". . . two men picked out their targets . . . shot one in the head and the other in the chest and stabbed a third man. . . . The attack happened the day after a chase through Wandsworth (south London) in which gunmen in an Audi sprayed a Ford Mondeo with bullets from a Uzi submachine gun. . . . That came after a series of violent carjackings executed with increasing ferocity. . . . Street crime in London has grown by 55 percent in the 12 months to November last year. . . . Londoners are now six times more likely to be robbed or attacked than New Yorkers. "
Independent, February 2002

 Violence: As English As Tea and Crumpets 2

"Britain's city centres are descending into alcohol-fuelled battlegrounds where police are almost invisible. . . . The hooliganism of hundreds of English football fans who ran amok at last month's Euro 2000 championships is part of a wider cultural problem."

"Barely 100 thugs took part in a clash (in a usually quite Birmingham street) that involved flares, petrol bombs, bricks and pieces of wood - and left one man in a coma and another with a fractured skull."

"One Saturday night . . . a passenger ferry making its 10.30 crossing of the River Tyne disgorged a large mob of hooligans on to the quayside at North Shields, where they fought a pitched battle with a rival gang."

Newspaper accounts of two of the frequent confrontations between English soccer supporters whose pastime is vicious brawling with like-minded fans.

 Violence: As English As Tea and Crumpets 3

You are more likely to be mugged, assaulted or be the victim of a burglary or vehicle theft in England than in the USA. That is one of the findings of a US Justice Department study of crime in the two countries since 1981. And while murder and rape are still more common in the USA, the Home Office has reported that violent crime in Britain increased in 1997.

These figures will not come as much of a surprise to those who know the two countries. Britain is notorious for the violence that has long been associated with soccer matches. At weekends towns throughout the land are the scene of wanton violence by drunken young men after a night in the pubs and clubs. Police forces report that they have insufficient officers to control these weekly disorders. The site of groups of police patrolling in "carriers" with steel guards ready to protect the windscreen from missiles, is so much a part of the British scene that it goes without comment.
 
Despite these facts the belief is still strong that Britain's attachment to tradition protects it against the violence that is believed to permeate American life. A recent writer to a British newspaper averred that he might avoid the higher prices for most consumer goods that are charged in Britain by shopping on the Continent. But not in America, lest he be mugged. Now he knows: he more likely to be robbed or beaten in the street in England's green and pleasant kingdom than in the American republic.

 Violence: As English As Tea and Crumpets 4

Children in Britain are more likely than those in continental Europe to fight in the street, steal from shops, damage property and use cannabis, according to a report made to the British Royal College of Psychiatrists in April 1999. The report is based on study in Germany, the Netherlands, Italy and Ireland, as well as Britain. Only in Ireland were the young people as bad as the British.

The report by psychologist Aoife Brinkley reports that 33 percent of children in Newcastle say they have fought in the street or sprayed graffiti. She concludes that British and Irish children take themselves less seriously and have weaker aspirations than those on the continent.

 Violence: As English As Tea and Crumpets 5

Britain's reputation for law and order has took another blow in February 2001 with the publication of new international crime comparisons. England and Wales were revealed as having the highest overall level of crime in the industrial world. In crimes of violence, sex offences, burglary and auto theft the two nations were near but not at the top.

Seventeen countries took part in the International Crime Victims Survey, which was part-sponsored by the British government. While England and Wales tied with Australia for the top spot, crime in Scotland was just above the international average. England and Wales had the highest number of crimes considered to be "very serious.". In robbery and sexual and other assaults, England, Wales and Scotland followed behind the most crime ridden nation, Australia.

 Violence: As English As Tea and Crumpets 6

Home Office statistics published in June 2001 suggested that violent crime was increasing as much in Britain as in South Africa. Only Portugal had a higher rate of increase. There was an increase of 16 percent on the previous year. Such crimes rose by only 5 percent in Russia. In the USA they fell by 7 percent.

 Violence: As English As Tea and Crumpets 7

"On the bloody front line of London’s gang wars, doctors go to Soweto for training in gun wounds."

Headline to report on the secondment of Homerton Hospital’s Dr. Donal Shanahan to learn from the trauma team at Baragwanath Hospital, Soweto, South Africa. Homerton Hospital serves Murder Mile in Hackney, London.

Dr. Shanahan told TheTelegraph that "If you study the hard facts, Soweto is statistically rather safer than east London." He said that he had not been shocked by what he had witnessed in the South African town. He had seen "this kind of violence and these kinds of injuries many times before in London."

 Violence: As English As Tea and Crumpets 8

"Scores of officers and police horses were injured in one of the worst nights of football violence in recent year. . . . Gangs of several hundred young men had gathered in pubs and on street corners" . . . they pelted police officers with "bricks, concrete slabs and flares, which police believe were stockpiled in parked cars as part of a planned attack . . . .. Residents of the Bonhomie estate . . . emerged from their homes yesterday morning to find their cars vandalised and the local playground reduced to rubble."
Press report May 2002

 
http://www.centreforcitizenship.org/ukimage.html

[Dune]

Homicide: Life in the Green & Pleasant Land 1

"In the latest incident, on Monday night, a 20-year old man was shot dead in the street in Harlesden, north-west London, by two men. On Sunday night, a gun battle outside a pub in Hoxton, north-east London, injured two people. Police called to investigate the shooting found nine cars with bullet holes in them. An abandoned Mazda was riddled with bullets and splashed with blood. Later on Sunday night, a 21-year man was hot in the back and killed at a night-club in Windsor, Berkshire. Two days earlier, a 23-year old man was shot several times as he sat in his car in Brixton, south London, following the funeral of a prominent gangster."

"The killings are believed to be the result of feuds over drugs - mostly crack cocaine - and territorial control."

The Independent, 7 July 1999.


 Homicide: Life in the Green & Pleasant Land 2

"The designer weapon of choice is the 1,000-round-a-minute, Ingram Mac10 . . . Residents live in fear of their lives. They cannot drive too fast or too slow or wear their hoods up in the rain, lest nervous, trigger-happy neighbourhood boys mistake them for the enemy . . . The new breed of gangsters . . . know that the only way to get respect is to pull a gun at the drop of a hat . . . today they shoot only to kill."

Chicago's South Side? Washington SE? No. This is the Longsight district of Manchester, England. August 1998. As reported in the Independent.

In Rochdale, Lancashire in April 1999 five bystanders were hit by bullets fired from a car being pursued by police. At the end of the chase, which reached 90 mph, the police took an AK-47 assault rifle and a handgun from the shooter's car. The incident was widely reported in the news media. However, journalists in general did not find in it any lessons about the British way of life, although serious crime in the USA is almost always portrayed as a result of a deeply flawed society.

 Homicide: Life in the Green & Pleasant Land 3

"The police now believe that (Solly) Nahome was killed as the opening shot in a gangland war to unseat the Adams family. The family run their drugs empire with a rule of terror. They are said to have ordered as many as 23 gangland hits. For 10 years they looked untouchable."

The Independent reporting in December 1998 on the murder in London of Solly Nahome, jeweller and alleged financial fixer for a north London crime family.

In April 1999 the Independent newspaper reported that there were about 30 hits in Britain each year by contract killers. It estimated that 20 "professional" killers operated in the country. Although possession of hand guns is illegal they may easily be bought for £250, the newspaper said.

 Homicide: Life in the Green & Pleasant Land 4

In May 2000 the Metropolitan Police announced a 12.5 percent increase in the number of offences in London. Massive increases in muggings, murder, violence and rape were announced. In the twelve months to April there were an additional 118,000 offences in the capital. Street crime was up by 36 percent. There were 39 more homicides than in the previous year.

 Homicide: Life in the Green & Pleasant Land 5

In June 2000 the Independent newspaper reported that in a small area of Hackney, north London, in a 3 month period there had been 2 gang killings, 1 unsuccessful hit, a knife killing and a filling station gun attack by a customer whose stolen credit card had been seized. Witnesses were said to be afraid to speak to the police. One commented that "around here it's like the Bronx."
Homicide: Life in the Green & Pleasant Land 6

In the narrow street (in Peckham, South London) the bullets pumped into eight victims, leaving them screaming on the ground. Others fled from the bright flash of the automatic weapon . . . . a group of revellers had been queuing to get into a packed all night party at the Chicago nightclub . . . " There is always someone on the corner selling drugs . You name it, you can buy it around here" local Tony Kempson told the reporter.

The Independent, 1 August 2000

 Homicide: Life in the Green & Pleasant Land 7

In January 2001 the Independentreported that police patrols responding to a call to Essentials night-club in south London stopped a number of clubbers wearing body armour. Officers also found seven abandoned handguns in and around the club.

Crime involving the use of guns has not been as high since the early nineties. In 2000 there were 4000 recorded incidents of criminal use of handguns.

Note. Ownership of handguns by British subjects was made illegal in 1997. Handguns were confiscated from those who owned licensed weapons for target shooting.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 British Narcotics 1.

"On Ocean estate (in east London), no one except the drug gangs goes out after sundown." Newspaper headline in 2000 to a report on the government 's "new deal" aid for deprived neighbourhoods. The paper quoted one "well-built, fairly fit looking 39-year old" resident of the public housing who was afraid to go out after dark.

 British Narcotics 2.

A higher proportion of the population use illegal drugs in Britain than in any other country of the 15-member European Union. According to the 1998 Report on the State of the Drugs Problem in the European Union by the European Commission, the highest use of cannabis, "ecstasy," amphetamines and solvents was in Britain, over 35% of those aged 15-16 having used one or more of those substances. Twenty percent of the same age group had sniffed solvents.

[Dune]

The National Center for Health Statistics' (NCHS) current "Deaths From 282 Selected Causes, By 5-Year Age Groups, Race, and Sex" data covers 1995. The National Safety Council's (NSC) "Accident Facts: 1997 Edition" provides estimates for 1996 and hard data for 1994 and previous years.
Highlights:

 The annual number of fatal firearm accidents is at an all-time low, down 62% since the all-time high in 1930, down 26% during the last decade, and down 10% in the last year alone.
 
 The fatal firearm accident rate has decreased throughout the 20th century and is at an all-time low, having declined 82% since the all-time high in 1903, 29% during the last decade, and 17% in the last year.
 
 Firearms are involved in only 1.5% of fatal accidents, and only 0.1% of deaths in the U.S.
 
 Fatal firearm accidents among children are at an all-time low, down 67% since 1975.

Annual fatal accident numbers

 In 1995 fatal firearm accidents fell to an all-time low, 1,225, a 10% decrease from 1994; a 26% decrease from 1985. Since 1930, fatal firearm accidents have decreased 62%, while the U.S. population doubled and the number of firearms quadrupled. (NCHS, NSC, Census Bureau, BATF) Other fatal accidents: motor vehicles (43,363), falls (13,986), poisoning (9,072), drowning (3,790), fire (3,761), suffocation on ingested object (3,185), and medical mistakes (2,712). (NCHS)

 

Fatal accidents as percentages of all deaths nationwide

 There were 2,312,132 deaths in the U.S. in 1995. Of these, 93,320 (4.0%) were accidental deaths. Fatal firearm accidents accounted for 0.1% of deaths nationwide. Other accidents: motor vehicles (1.9%), falls (0.6%), poisoning (0.4%), fire (0.2%), drowning (0.2%), suffocation on ingested object (0.1%), and medical mistakes (0.1%). (NCHS)

 

Fatal accidents as percentages of accidental deaths nationwide

 There were 93,320 fatal accidents nationwide in 1995, of which 1.5% involved firearms. Other fatal accidents: motor vehicle (46.5%), falls (14.7%), poisonings (9.8%), fires (4.4%), drownings (3.7%), chokings on ingested objects (3.4%), and medical mistakes (2.9%). (NCHS) The NSC estimates for 1996: firearm (1.5%), motor vehicles (46%), falls (15%), poisoning (11%), drowning (4%), fires (3%), and suffocation on ingested object (3%).

 

Annual fatal accident rates

 In 1995 the fatal firearm accident rate fell to an all-time low (0.5 per 100,000 pop.), an 85% decrease from the all-time high recorded in 1904. Other rates: motor vehicles (17.2), falls (5.1), poisoning (2.9), fire (1.6), drowning (1.5), suffocation on ingested object (1.3), and medical mistakes (1.1%). (NCHS)
 
 The NSC estimates that in 1996 the fatal firearms accident rate remained 0.5. Other fatal accident rates included motor vehicle (16.3), falls (5.3), poisoning (3.9), fires (1.2), drowning (1.5), and suffocation on ingested object (1.1). NSC does not estimate medical mistake data.

 

The CDC's "Cars & Guns" comparison

The federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has been under fire in Congress because it has repeatedly used taxpayers' money to fund politically-motivated, scientifically inept "studies" by researchers with a known anti-firearm bias. In one of its most blatant attempts to promote "gun control," the CDC claimed that licensing of gun owners and registration of firearms would reduce firearms accidents because licensing of drivers and registration of cars allegedly caused fatal motor vehicle accidents to decline between 1968 and 1991.

The claim was a complete fraud, for the following reasons:

Between 1968-1991, without gun registration and gun owner licensing, the fatal firearms accident rate dropped 50%, while the motor vehicle accident rate declined only 37%. The firearms rate declined more, and the motor vehicle rate declined less, than the other three major accident types: work-related (down 49%), home (down 41%) and other public non-motor-vehicle (down 38%). The NSC estimates that from 1968-1996, the fatal firearm accident rate declined 58%, while the motor vehicle rate declined only 40%. Definitions of work-related, home, and public non-motor vehicle accidents were changed in 1992, making comparisons with earlier data inappropriate.

Driver licensing and vehicle registration laws were imposed mostly before World War II and motor vehicle fatal accident rates didn't begin declining until 1970. Driver licensing and vehicle registration laws were imposed to generate revenue, not for safety. Motor vehicle accidents rose sharply after the 1930s, when most vehicle registration and driver licensing laws were imposed, and have increased each year since 1992. By comparison, fatal firearm accidents have decreased.
 

Fatal firearm accidents among children

 The annual number of fatal firearm accidents among children fell to 181 in 1995, an all-time low. Other types of fatal accidents among children: motor vehicle (3,059), drowning (1,024), fires (833), suffocation on ingested object (213), falls (127), medical mistakes (80), and poisoning (80). (NCHS) The NSC estimates that fatal firearm accidents among children decreased 64% between those 1975-1995.
 
 There were 44,582 deaths among children in 1995, of which firearm accidents accounted for 0.4%. Other fatal accidents: motor vehicle (7%), drowning (2%), fires (2%), suffocation on ingested object (0.5%), falls (0.3%), poisoning (0.2%), and medical mistakes (0.2%). (NCHS)
 
 There were 6,611 fatal accidents among children in 1995, including 181 (2.7%) with firearms. Other fatal accidents: motor vehicle (46%), fires (13%), drownings (15%), suffocation on ingested objects (3%), falls (2%), poisonings (1%) and medical mistakes (1%). (NCHS)
 
 Anti-gun groups overstate the number of firearm related deaths among children, by defining "children" to include anyone through the age of 19. The reason: 84% of firearm-related deaths (homicides, suicides and accidents) among persons 0-19 years old are accounted for by adolescents and young adults ages 15-19. The anti-firearm Children's Defense Fund (CDF) and other "gun control" advocates have applied this trick to NCHS data, resulting in the fraudulent claim that firearms are involved in the deaths of "one child" every 90-odd minutes, "10 children" every day, "5,000-plus children" every year, and so on.
 
 In 1995, there were 5,254 firearm-related deaths among persons ages 0-19: 852 (16%) among children and 4,402 (84%) among juveniles and adults ages 15-19. Firearm deaths among the 15-19 age group included homicides (2,787, 63%), suicides (1,266, 29%), accidents (259, 6%), and those unexplained (90, 2%). Among children, firearm-related deaths included homicides (462, 54%), suicides (184, 22%), accidents (181, 21%) and those unexplained (25, 3%). (NCHS) Anti-firearm advocates often add firearm- related homicides, suicides and accidents to produce a total number of "deaths due to gunfire" and compare that total to the number of deaths resulting from certain diseases or accidents, declaring that "gunfire" is the ("xth") leading cause of death among "children." Often, they twist statistics by excluding deaths among persons less than one year of age, because of the large number of persons in that age group who die from perinatal conditions, congenital anomalies, and sudden infant death syndrome.

 

The cost of firearms injuries

 The cost of medical treatment of firearm injuries is approximately $1.4 billion annually, roughly one-fifth of 1% of the nation's medical care costs. Medical costs of motor vehicle accidents reached $23 billion in 1994. (NSC) Not measured are medical costs not incurred by persons who use firearms to prevent violent crimes and associated injuries, or benefits achieved because armed citizens deter some criminals, facilitate the arrest of others, and fatally shoot other criminals in self-defense. Criminologist Gary Kleck's analysis of national crime victimization surveys indicates that people who use firearms for self-defense are less likely to be injured than people who use other, or no, means of defense.

This information compiled & provided by:

National Rifle Association of America
Institute for Legislative Action
Research & Information Division
11250 Waples Mill Road
Fairfax, VA 22030
703-267-1170

 

Copyright © 1999 by Second Amendment Stuff. All rights reserved.
Last revised: January 01, 2001

from: http://secondamendmentstuff.com/firearm_safety.htm

[lazs2]

yikes dune... I was under the false impression that I was safew in london... now I see that I would not be comfortable with a mere PPK... I think I need something in full auto, prefferably belt fed, just to stay competetive.

yep... they are learning about crack cocaine and imigration.  should be interesting.
lazs

[beet1e]

Hehe - 18 replies so far, ALL from the USA.

I forgot to mention that I tend to avoid debating in threads which I've started myself. Bad form, perhaps. So - talk amongst yourselves. I'm occupied till Monday, so I'll check back then.

T-P

[GtoRA2]

Bad form is starting something then walking away.

You didn't notice most of the posts where making fun of you?

Wait maybe you did, and that's where the bad form thing came from... nice one... good excuse!


Hey have fun on your weekend, hope you don't get mugged!

Oh and I hope there is enough booze to help you out!

[H. Godwineson]

Ah!  Life in the big city!  So glamorous and entertaining!  Once you leave the farm why would you want to go back?

Regards, Shuckins

[beet1e]

Hi gang,

Ah yes, I see that all my usual fan club is here, but what's this - not one, not two, but THREE posts from GTO. Weren't you the guy who found me insulting and was not going to waste his time talking to me again? Well that's OK. You're entitled to change your mind. Women do it all the time.

You didn't notice most of the posts where making fun of you?

Wait maybe you did, and that's where the bad form thing came from... nice one... good excuse!

Thank you for confirming that most of the posts were making fun of me!  Erm, the thought had crossed my mind.  And I should be made to attend the forum to receive my abuse! LOL! But notice how every single reply comes from America. Not even Gman has joined in. And that's because the folks in other countries have no interest in guns, and neither do I in particular, but I do have an interest in America, and am appalled by the avoidable loss of life.

GTO, you have a post going about bad driving in CA. Now I suspect that many of us who have participated in car threads are highly competent drivers. I am no rally driver myself, but competent. Now many Americans would be appalled to know that in Germany, many autobahnen have no speed limit! I was there about 3 years ago, and drove between Frankfurt and Munich. Top speed in my VR6 was about 140mph and I touched that, and still had high powered Mercedes Benz passing me doing 150mph+. (I slowed down when the oil temp reached 112°C)  Here, we have a nationwide speed limit of 70. And that applies to everyone, even to those people who fancy themselves as better than average drivers. Now I would be quite happy to cruise at 120 on motorways where traffic conditions permit, but I could lose my licence if I did. 30 over the limit, and you're subject to a ban. It would be for about a month, and there would also be a fine of about £500 or US$750. (had a friend who got done at 115mph) So I push my luck a little bit, and stick to 90-95. The police don't seem to mind that, but watch for those cameras!

Now the Americans like their guns. Fair enough - target shooting, game shooting... and many of you, like Lazs, are competent gun owners. But... by insisting on your rights, it's like us all as motorists saying "We want to be allowed to drive at 150mph on the Interstates and the government is violating our constitutional rights by imposing speed limits" - or something like that. So OK, no speed limits. But can you imagine the carnage then? Looking at GTO's driving thread, I wouldn't trust some of those drivers at 60mph, never mind 150.

And that's how I feel about your gun laws. Freedom of guns so that you guys can have some is one thing, but look at all the other schmucks that have got them too, which is why you guys feel the need to keep loaded weapons at home.

OK, not a perfect analogy, but something to be going on with.

Dune - thank you for those three walls about England's green and pleasant land. You quoted areas like Harlesden and Peckham, and they are neither green nor pleasant! I mentioned Peckham in the anti-gun thread, and it is a hell hole. (Not green, and definitely not white) But let's not compare apples with oranges. That would be like comparing white middle class areas of America with south central Los Angeles.

And now I must resume my weekend. I had a very nice evening yesterday - thank you to those who mentioned it. We went to La Fontana for an Italian meal. It's just a short walk from the house, and we didn't get mugged. Unfortunately, the only seating available was in the smoking area, but no-one was there when we arrived. If only England could be like California, where government has withdrawn the rights of citizens to smoke in restaurants. :D:D

[SC-Sp00k]

Dare we start filling volumes of pages with reports of Violence from the US of A. ?

We could, but we wont cause we cant be bothered reading it. Ill just wait till the 6oclock news comes on instead. Suggest you all do the same.

[Swoop]

I'm sure I've said this before, maybe a few times, but I feel the need to state it again:

Beetle's views do not necessarily represent the views of the British in general and we reserve the right to hide behind the sofa and pretend we're not in when he comes round.

[Samm]

Doesn't Northern Ireland have gun controll ?

[lazs2]

two things beetle..  How is our "loss of life avoidable"   I suppose that if we took all our blacks and all of our illegal immigrants and shipped em to your country our homicide rate would halve and yours would treble or quadruple... I don't think that is a very workable solution but it is probly the only one that has a chance of working.   I  would rather leave things as they are.

two... your analodgy about the autobahn is not only imerfect but it proves our point rather than yours.   What you are saying is that we could avoid loss of life if we advocated speed limit controls for Germany... It is as if germany were sudenly  deluged with a bunch of foreigners crying for speed limits on the autobahn and.... none of em knew anything about the subject... then the analodgy would be perfect and.... I dare say that the vast majority of germans would post in defense of their freedom...

oh... In order to make the analodgy even more  perfect... It would have to be that germany had unrestricted speed limits in their constitution and people were trying to say that the constitution was meaningless and outdated.  or that it didn't say what it obviously did.   Certainly you would find a bleeding heart wussy or two living in germany that would be on your side tho but.. . I say the conversation would much resemble this one about guns.

perhaps we could save a lot of uk lives by making booze illegal?  no,, no doubt about it.. we could save a bunch and... who really needs to drink in light of the apalling loos of life it causes?
lazs

[beet1e]

Lazs - you're missing two vital points. Not only are European drivers far superior to American drivers, but so are the cars. I would feel much safer at 150mph in a Merc than I would in a Chev at 90mph.  

perhaps we could save a lot of uk lives by making booze illegal?

Doubtful. Look what happened when you guys tried it. Biggest fillip the mafia ever had. Ban booze and the mafia makes big profits and can buy more guns.

[lazs2]

your starting to understand the whole "ban" thing beetle... you just don't know it yet.
lazs

[beet1e]

LOL Lazs!  You know me too well And we've never even met.

But seriously...

...instead of considering guns, let's consider another type of weapon - missile. If you were to say that more guns = less crime, then how do you feel about more missiles = fewer wars and/or safer world?  How do you feel about that? Imagine that instead of antiquated Scuds, Saddam had laser guided missiles, and satellite guided cruise missiles with nuclear warheads and a range of several thousand miles? How safe would that be? How about arming the Taliban (what's left) or al qa'eda? Give nuclear arms to all the rebel causes - IRA, Chechens, malcontents in Indonesia...  how safe would the world be then?  It would be arms for all - the very scenario which you proclaim as making your country safer. But does it apply on a world scale? Well Tony Blair and Dubya have gone to great pains to convince the UN that it does not! And most Americans, and many Limeys including this one, agree.  I would be interested to hear from anyone, especially Lazs, about how they feel about the dangers posed by Iraq and why it should be disarmed, and then equate the rationale used to the guns issue in the US.  No hooks here. (That last one was more like a crane jib)

I don't know whether Swoop would agree with me - he's probably still hiding behind the sofa, as I was out and about this afternoon - but crap though the current Labour Government is (and I have never ever voted Labour) I look around and see that on the Iraq issue, Tony Blair is not only the only man to lead us through this crisis, he is the right man.

Starting to digress... over to Lazs. And someone knock on GTO's bedroom door. Time he was up and stoning me on this BBS.