The reason you can't shoot a bomber down is because your not German.

[LtHans]

Ok, look.  I just saw a whole flurry of bomber and anti-bomber posts this last week.

I would like to point out that I beleave the argument that you cannot shoot down bombers like the real life pilots could absolutely DOES NOT hold water.

If you want to use that argument, let me ask you this.  Did you fly like the Germans did?  Did you attack in groups comming in from different directions simultaneously?  Did you take the time to get above your target and dive on it?  Did you use any sort of attack pattern other than dead astern?  Did it even occur to you that instead of attacking you could shadow the bomber, herd it away from your airbases and call out its postion?  These were the standard tactics of the Luftwaffe, and even they failed to stop bombers alot of times.

Did you know the B-17 shot down more German planes than the escort fighters did?  Did you know that the Germans have a point scoring system whan awarding kills and counted the 4-engine bombers as four kills?

I personnally beleave that anybody who whines about fighting bombers is to blame for his failure, not the guy who flys the bomber.  Let me say it a second time.  YOU were flying YOUR fighter.  YOU are responsible for winning.  If you fail, you did something wrong.  I think most whiners are just sore because they thought they knew what they were doing, but I have seen too many idjits do it the wrong way to be convinced there is something wrong with the bombers.

Also, when I attack bombers I do it the SMART way by using the tactics I described above.  You know what?  When I don't forget my own advice...I win.  All the time.  No joke.  They key to success is cooperation and attacking in groups.  If you don't have the pattience for that, then no you won't ever win a high alt buff vs fighter fight.

The only concession I will give is that early warning radar....isn't.  I would like to see the radar display when in the control tower (not airborn, just on the ground) show details of the aircraft on screen including altitude, speed and type.  That is an area where in real life the airforces had ample time to ready an air defense, but we do not.

Hans.

[Wotan]

why dont you go reread those "anti-buff" threads again then check the scores of those who were the major anti-buffers.

The majority of which never said buffs are to hard or have any problem killing them.

and why rehash it here.

Buffs arent forced to fly "historically" or have anything close to historic bombing procedures. They are by far the minority in Ah.

Please dont "redefine" the arguement based on your misunderstanding of what was said in those other threads.

While you are certainly correct on how the true LW attacked planes it has no relationship to the arguement of buffs in AH.

I'll restate what I believe is the arguement.

buffs have far to great an impact on gameplay in the main.

To get an understanding of that point reread those threads abd maybe you'll understand.

I'm not gonna cut'n'paste the numerous explanations by several different folks so please reread umm.

[BlauK]

Wotan,

Buffs have far to great an impact on gameplay in the main.... IF they are not intercepted!!!!

One could just as well say the same thing about jabos and gvs, but since they fight low, the furballers sometimes intercept them.

If "gameplay" = furballs, move that gameplay to duelling arena.

Buffs are fun to hunt just the way they are at the moment. If they are made easier to kill they wont be flown that much anymore. It would be a pity to lose such targets.

Another point is that buffs never destroy the  ability to refuel and rearm. If you stay alive you can keep on furballing close to the attacked base as long as you like. BUT if you only go for suicide HO attacks and get new planes after another... well it will be a problem. It is good that buffs encourage people trying to stay alive this way  

[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: BlauK ]

[Glasses]

Hans you live in 1950 do you?

 The scoring of 4 kills for a four engined bomber was a long defuncted myth. They DID give 4 POINTS!!! towards a promotion to German Luftwaffe pilots that shot down a Buff,and 2 points for a final destruction of a buff. It was a points to promotion award system NOT kills, Ricky Retardo.

 A kill = a kill no more no less,  the LW had one of the most strict standards in regards to  kills compared to other airforces of the time.

 So there you go your argument goes down the toejam hole .

 No, I don't have a problem  with killing buffs since when they're on their bombing run you can sneak up on them and well 190A8+Buff=confeti.

[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Glasses ]

[janjan]

One thing that I think is wrong is buffs ability to totally destroy a fighter. Bombers gunners should be able to shoot engine out, pilot kills/wounded, maybe some control surface damage, fuel and fire etc. but not be easily able to saw wings off.

Buff guns are just too stable gun platforms. Maybe little instability to gun sight would do the trick. You know, even if you don't move the sight, it does wonder a little.

Otherwise they are fine, shouldn't be too easy to kill a buff.

Other than that, most stories do tell simple attacks on buffs, killing gunners, shooting engines etc...not some fancy angle attacks and shootin buff wings off.

Also, hiding behind buff rudder was valid tactic, since RL gunners did not shoot thru it.  

[Apache]

LtHans, I see what you are trying to say, however it is not applicable to what we are trying to say. The AH bombers are not limited to realistic settings as the fighters are. HTC has implemeted game play concessions for the bombers as they have stated on numerous occassions.

An good example was lastnight. We (rooks) were attacking a field, think it was A29. Even tho the fighter hangars were up, bomber after bomber after bomber kept upping from that field in a defensive posture (in WB we called it ackstarring). Why do you think that is?

In your post you mentioned RL pilots. Do you actually think a real bomber pilot would have taken off to assist in defending a field full of enemy fighters? I don't.

[Kirin]

As for buff defensives:

* I dont mind too much about the gunner range slighty increased. You still have a good chance downing a bomber all by yourself without taking any lethal damage.

* I really would like a restricted field of fire for gunners when crossing their own structures or let em damage themselfs... but no biggie here...

* I DO mind about the ridiculous manouverability of buffs at stratoshperic altitude though!!! Just had a Lancaster outlooping    me at 25k+ yesterday!! Me being in a D9. (I got film - gonna post it and some pics just after I come home); plus the rudder-turn-shoot-you-down-move. B17 seem to turn at high alt without any E-loss. Along with the fact that buffs have pin-point accuracy from infinite alt really promotes alt-monkeying...

Leave the defensive positions alone but fix the FM!  

[lazs2]

Real life buff  gunner kill claims were the wildest exageration of any kill claims.

The AH fluffs are no fun to kill... They are easy enough if you wish to fly a boring flight that is ended by a gamey, nonsense fight that is barely a step above a boxed sim.   I kill a lot more of em than kill me... I only bother if there is NOTHING else to kill..   To kill em does take time tho.. that is ok but you don't have time since they can fight and laser bomb at the same time and really... they are on a suicide trip anyway... If you succeed the no talent moron will just come back in 20 minutes and you will be stuck playing HIS gtame all night....  But since you have some talent you will feel like your time is being wasted...   There is no such thing as a fluffer feeling his time is wasted since it is all that he can do anyway.

Wotan is correct.   they have too much effect on gameplay... blauk... you say you enjoy hunting them?   You would make a great baseball fan or... next time I paint the house I'll let you come over and watch it dry..   I kill em easy or one of em kills me with a shot that is made from some gun that is on the other side of the plane.   Or because every single gunner act's like worker ants (or ai) slaved to a single queen...  

Look... How many people do you see in the arena up there hunting fluffs?   Maybe a few who fly for the girley grey and can't kill anything else but that's about it.   where are the players?   they are fighting between fields.   They are not gointg to give up the fun of a fight to go cap at 20k or so in the off chance that some no talent, attention starved, suicide fluff driver may come over and laser bomb a few choice targets and ruin the game for the others.  

Why learn any skills in AH if all you have to do to have a huge impact is take a mouse and an hour or so and learn to fluff?

the fluffs have too great an impact on the game.  It is a bug and it will get fixed.   Wanna bet?
lazs

[Am0n]

Lazs
 i wouldnt go as far to call all bombers no talent, ive seen some real good gunner/pilots that can hold there own with about any fighter.

 Im bored here at work so i wanted to check it out and see what your   :(crying   about, what i found for last month is that its the fact you cant kill them efficantly, contrary to the over statement of
 
"I kill a lot more of em than kill me... "

 Now if "a lot" is 1 more kill on a b17 than a death buy a B17, then your statement is correct.

 Other than that i would stick to the furballing, you got the hang of that for sure (stat wise).

 Having bombers adds another angle to the game, with out them you end up with another death match flight sim.

 this is my opinion of course, you are intitled to yours. but dont act like yours is the only one that matters, we all pay our fees to play.

 The point of this sim is to take feilds, not get kills IMO. furhter more than taking feilds, have fun, the thrill of the hunt. Or the thrill of penetrating enemy lines and flying a bomber group deep in enemy territory, making a hit and making it home.

 That is fun, may you be a escort or a buff pilot that is good fun. Personaly i dont fly any bombers often, unless freinds are over playing on a lan in the MA.

 I find it much more enjoyable to dive bomb, good way to get the ole heart pumping.  

[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Am0n ]

[texace]

Yeah, sure. Let's remove bombers and make this game one big giant deathmatch...    

[Westy MOL]

"Let's remove bombers and make this game one big giant deathmatch..."

 YES!!!!!

 

Westy

[Westy MOL]

"The point of this sim is to take feilds, not get kills IMO."

 Wrong.

 Taking fields is just one way to promote aircombat. Landgrabbing is an act that causes a reaction that begets the fighting. For it is all about killing and shooting each other down.
 
 You must have AH confused with Age of Empires or some other land conquering strategy game.

 Westy

[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]

[Am0n]

Westy

things to note;

"IMO" = In My Opinion (welcome to the internet!!)

that is yours.. A very biased one but none the less your opinion. If your not open to others veiws on somthing you should really just keep yours to your self, no one wants to have a discusion with a one sided-my-ways-the-right-way cynic.

[Westy MOL]

Of course that was your opinion you posted. All posts regarding what AH is are simply "opinions" unless it's an actual member of HTC that defines what AH is. I posted my opinion of yours being "wrong" in reply. If you're that senstitive that you cannot handle the feed-back then maybe you should limit your responses to email?

 Westy

[Wlfgng]

I dunno but at 30+k (dweeb alt) we (assassins) fired up a bunch of ta's to intercept b17's last night..
I think maybe 3 of the group made it through and the rest we shot down  
oh.. few fighters too.

overall though I think that alt is crazy.
I can only imagine how long it took those buffs to get to alt.. and it was a long way to fall I'd bet too