Fighter kill stats from Burma:

[brady]

When I watch the history channel, I judge how good the show was by, how many times in 15 min they say somthing either misleading or compleatly wrong, the number never seams to drop bellow 1 wrong or misleading statement.

 The sad thing is that their is realy a lot of truth in that above statement, History chanel shows are often misleading and contain just Wrong statements.

  They have very prety pictures though.

 When looking at books you nead to consider the source, I have several books with wrong statements in them, or typos, some of which I discovered by posting refrences to them hear, one that springs to mind readly was the thickness of the osty's turet armor, this was from a "Good" refrance source mind you, so even Good books can have mistakes in them.

   My sources state as well that No Zero's faught the AVG P40's in China, they faught the Obseleate Ki 27 Nate, and later I beleave some Oscar I's, howeaver I am not 100% certain of the Oscar's.

[Matre]

ok i apologize, my sources are wrong, however i am compelled to ask widewing and old man what their sources are.  and how are you guys so sure that your sources are correct.  i am not saying you are wrong.  however if my 4 books and 2 movies can be wrong, im sure your sources have the possiblity of being incorrect.  not trying to argue...just want to know the real truth about it.

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Matre
ok i apologize, my sources are wrong, however i am compelled to ask widewing and old man what their sources are.  and how are you guys so sure that your sources are correct.  i am not saying you are wrong.  however if my 4 books and 2 movies can be wrong, im sure your sources have the possiblity of being incorrect.  not trying to argue...just want to know the real truth about it.

As you should.  Off the top of my head, "Zero" by Masatake Okumiya, Jiro Horikoshi and Martin Caidin contains this information.  Caidin is a notoriously unreliable "historian" on his own, but when he wrote in conjunction with others, they generally kept him honest.  Horikoshi, as I recall, was one of the designers of the Zero, and Okumiya was an IJN staff officer throughout the war.

- oldman

[Matre]

no need to be rude oldman, was just stating the facts that i was given, and your sources are no more reliable than mine.  in addition, a local man does a radio show every fri afternoon.  he interviews veterans of WWII and has them tell their stories.  yesterday he interviewed a member of the AVG.  this pilot made it clear that they DID in fact face the zero, however it was in small numbers.  now i understand your protest but i dont think you can get a better source than a man who was in the cockpit in china.  for the sake of saving from more argument i am not going to post anymore about this.  it started out as a civil discussion and has turned into a bashing session with no one having the right answer.  thank you all for responding. see you in the game.

Matre

[Matre]

no need to be rude oldman, was just stating the facts that i was given, and your sources are no more reliable than mine.  in addition, a local man does a radio show every fri afternoon.  he interviews veterans of WWII and has them tell their stories.  yesterday he interviewed a member of the AVG.  this pilot made it clear that they DID in fact face the zero, however it was in small numbers.  now i understand your protest but i dont think you can get a better source than a man who was in the cockpit in china.  for the sake of saving from more argument i am not going to post anymore about this.  it started out as a civil discussion and has turned into a bashing session with no one having the right answer.  thank you all for responding. see you in the game.

Matre

[Matre]

btw sorry for the double post, dont know how that happened.

[oboe]

Matre.   IMO, you haven't been bashed; merely disagreed with by fellows who have been in this particular discussion before.   Don't take it too personally.  

You make a very good point about revealing sources - I'm interested the 4 books and two movies you mentioned.   Could you be more specific about what they are?    Piecing together the picture of the war in the Pacific has always been more difficult than the European theater for some reason.   Perhaps conditions were so harsh they didn't keep good records, or the records didn't survive.

Thanks,

Oboe

[ergRTC]

From what I have read and heard, (accounts by a couple of the AVG on their main website).  The AVG never saw a zero besides the one that was dead already.  They did, however, believe they were fighting zeros when the oscar showed up.  They called them zeros, they thought they were zeros, and I dont think they knew otherwise till much later.

So I dont necessarily think your sources are wrong, just a matter of using the same name for different things.


and old man wasnt being mean, when he said "as you should"  it wasnt about the apology, it was about asking for his sources.  


erg

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Matre
ok i apologize, my sources are wrong, however i am compelled to ask widewing and old man what their sources are.  and how are you guys so sure that your sources are correct.  i am not saying you are wrong.  however if my 4 books and 2 movies can be wrong, im sure your sources have the possiblity of being incorrect.  not trying to argue...just want to know the real truth about it.

You ask a fair question. I have/had friendships with several members of the AVG, including Dick Rossi, Erik Shilling and Chuck Baisden. We lost Erik last year.

In addition, I know Dan Ford, who has done more research on the AVG than anyone else. Dan examined Japanese records and verified that no IJNAF units were in the China/Burma theater during the AVG's tenure. I also have copies of some of Chennault's postwar letters where he states that the AVG never encountered the Zero. Erik and I spent a lot of time researching the exact model of the Curtiss Tomahawk flown by the AVG. We concluded that it was a hybrid. AVG fighters were taken from an existing British contract (substituted with the new P-40D/Kittyhawk I). Hence, they had RAF assigned S/Ns. But, when the planes were actually built, they were manufactured with externally sealed fuel tanks left over from the P-40B production run, and had the external (drop) fuel tank plumbing and shackles omitted that were standard on the P-40C/Tomahawk IIC. Dan accepted this research and later editions of his book were to be ammended (Dan initially believed that the AVG flew the Tomahawk IIC).

It is true that many of the AVG referred to the Ki-43 as a Zero. Several Japanese units, including the 67th Sentai flew the Ki-43 against the AVG.

I recommend Dan's book, "Flying Tigers: Clair Chennault and the American Volunteer Group as a good history. Dan is a little weak in his aviation nomemclature, but he provides material not discovered before.

In addition try these links to my web site for some really neat material written by the above named AVG members.

Erik Shilling

Dick Rossi

R.T. Smith

My regards,

Widewing

[Matre]

This is definately my final post on this subject....i apologize to all, and i stand corrected.  i had my friend who interviewed this AVG pilot on the radio, call the pilot to verify his statement due to the information given me by Widewing (thanks wide).  the pilot apologized giving the explanation that he was old and that he had confused his AVG days with his later dealings in the war.  he explained that they had termed the "nick" the "zero" so he naturally associated it with his later encounters with the a6m2.  thank you all for your posts.   all.

Matre

[-ammo-]

burma was OK.  Last time I flew in there I got double teamed by honch and that redneck from Raliegh (won't mention any names but his initials are leviathn).  One on one, they didn't want any though:)

[Charon]

widewing, isn't Dan Ford Persona non grata among the ex AVGers. I believe Shilling in particulary had no small amount of animosity towards him and the accuracy of his materials.

Here's an example.


http://yarchive.net/mil/ford_book.html

Charon

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by -ammo-
burma was OK.  Last time I flew in there I got double teamed by honch and that redneck from Raliegh (won't mention any names but his initials are leviathn).  One on one, they didn't want any though:)

I'm realistic about my chances against a higher, faster Zero who's conserving his energy and E fighting my P-40E.

So yeah, I called in a distraction.  

And it's Durham, damnit!  I live in North Durham county and commute to Chapel Hill.  Raleigh's just full of hicks 'n stuff.  

-- Todd/Leviathn

[-ammo-]

I know you told me that before, sorry bout that.  Was a fun little detup in burma, and was cool to meet some really good pilots on the opposing side.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Charon
widewing, isn't Dan Ford Persona non grata among the ex AVGers. I believe Shilling in particulary had no small amount of animosity towards him and the accuracy of his materials.

Here's an example.


http://yarchive.net/mil/ford_book.html

Charon

Initially, when Ford's book was published, the AVG in general took exception to some of Ford's facts and opinions. I also read through the book and discovered 78 individual errors of fact, but all were related to the aircraft and technology.

Perhaps the biggest dispute arose from Ford's use of "reconstructed" records put together by several Japanese historians. Virtually all loss records of units that fought the AVG were destroyed at the end of the war. These newly reconstructed records cut the number of AVG kills in half. As you can imagine, this upset the AVG members considerably. I count myself among those who view the reconstructed records as overly optimistic, if not deliberately fraudulent.

Much of Ford's defense for his position depended upon the fact that many kills were not confirmed by actual wreckage. However, many Japanese wrecks have been discovered that were not claimed by the AVG, or its offspring, the China Air Task Force. Yet, these wrecks are not accounted for in reconstructed records either. So, where did they come from?

Erik's dispute with Ford largely centered in the Curtiss fighter model flown by the AVG, among some lesser disagreements. However, over the course of years, Erik and Ford worked out their differences and actually came to establish a cordial relationship.

Yet, many of the AVG still dislike Ford, despite Ford's efforts to smooth over the issues. Dan genuinely admires the Flying Tiger vets. Although, his original resistance to criticism was stubborn, bordering on arrogant.

That said, Ford's book is still a very good source on the AVG. Contention aside, it is always wise to supplement any one work with others to obtain some real balance. This is why I offered additional material, and suggest that anyone interested in the AVG obtain several sources of info, including books written by members and Chennault as well.

My regards,

Widewing