Author Topic: That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?  (Read 1270 times)

Offline Urchin

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« on: November 17, 2002, 11:23:38 AM »
Well, I'm bored, and getting rather burnt out.  So I figured I'd start a good old 'debate' (or flamefest, or whatever) on this old and probably quite tired topic.  I used to think it was pilot, all the way.  I'm still not quite all the way to the other end of the spectrum, but I'm going to say it is 60/40 or 70/30 plane/pilot.  

I'll come back and post the reasoning later, don't feel like writing a novel on it just now.

Offline Shane

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2002, 11:30:20 AM »
when someone shoots me down, it's the plane.

when i shoot someone down it's the pilot.

how can it get any more clear than that?

:D
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
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Offline Fatty

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2002, 12:07:51 PM »
I've found in my experience that most people whine or don't whine regardless of what plane they happen to be in.

So I'd have to say in the eternal search of that ever elusive yet extremely satisfying ultimate open channel breakdown, it's definately the pilot.

Offline BlckMgk

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2002, 12:15:05 PM »
You can only do so much with the tools given to you... but there are very few exceptions to this....

And in my mind I feel i'm the exception so I say Pilot.. :D

Offline SFRT - Frenchy

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2002, 12:26:32 PM »
Pilotskill1*planeperf1=Pilotskill2*planeperf2

and

Pilot1 victory = integer( 0 to luckofthedayfactor) [initialsituation +  Pilotskill2*(planeperf2/planeperf1)]
Dat jugs bro.

Terror flieger since 1941.
------------------------

Offline ccvi

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Re: That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2002, 12:40:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
I'm still not quite all the way to the other end of the spectrum, but I'm going to say it is 60/40 or 70/30 plane/pilot.


Quote
Originally posted by Shane
when someone shoots me down, it's the plane. hen i shoot someone down it's the pilot.


Your K/D is 0.4 to 0.6?

;)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2002, 12:52:09 PM by ccvi »

Offline Urchin

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2002, 12:42:21 PM »
K/D doesn't really have much to do with pilot skill.

Offline ccvi

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2002, 12:53:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
K/D doesn't really have much to do with pilot skill.


Sorry, I calculated wrong. Corrected it. (60/40, where 60 is plane and 40 the pilot. the plane shoots you down, and the pilot is responsible for getting kills...)

Offline Animal

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2002, 01:17:22 PM »
Its about 75% pilot 25% plane.

Though guys who can not admit that they are not really good pilots would like to make you believe that the plane is the most important part of the equation.

Offline Urchin

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2002, 01:34:44 PM »
No, what I was getting at was in any fight between 2 planes, the end result is 60-70% plane and 30-40% pilot.  Of course, a fight between just 2 planes is so rare that it hardly warrants mentioning anymore, which makes the inferior planes even more inferior.

I think it is obvious most people think it is mostly plane, or planes like the N1K and La7 wouldn't be 10% as popular as they are now.  In fact, you can take it to an even more absurd level and say that in a fight between an M16 and a Flakpansie, the better 'driver' would win, right?  Wrong.  The Flakpansie holds every advantage over the M16, which is why it is used approximately 4 times more often.  Actually, I think that might be a little low, to be honest.  But you understand the point.  The differences between the planes aren't as absurd as the differences between the GVs, but to say that some planes don't just utterly dominate other planes is not speaking truthfully.  

I'll use Leviathn as an example, since he is a good pilot and a lot of people know who he is.  Lev flies the Spit V.  It is slow, it turns really well, accelerates well, and has 2 20mm cannon and  4 little machineguns.  He does pretty well in the Spit V (as anyone who has flown against him will know).  His record for this tour so far is 260 kills vs only 45 deaths.  That is just about 6 to 1.

Now lets do a little hypothetical thinking and pick out a new plane for Leviathn.  We'll see the 'type' of plane he likes to fly (good turner, for lack of a better word), and see if we can find a replacement plane for him.  His Spit V is at the dealer, he broke it.  For a 'loaner plane', they give him a 109e4.  Well, it is a good turner anyway.  

So, allowing for some time to become familiar with his new loaner plane, who thinks Leviathn will go 6 to 1 in the 109E4?  Nothing, against him, because I know he is an excellent stick, but I don't.  I think tops, he might go 3 to 1.  Maybe.  

Why?  Because the 109e4 is so inferior to what he normally flies that even if he could hop right in and go, he wouldn't be able to achieve the same results.  The 109E doesn't turn quite as well, it rolls about half as fast, it doesn't accelerate or climb as well, so he won't be able to manuever it like he can a Spit V.  The MG/FF are nowhere near as effective as Hizookas are, so once he gets his opponent to make a mistake, he likely won't be able to kill him with a snapshot, like he can with twin Hizookas.  

Now it gets even worse in the Main Arena.  Unless you can kill other planes quickly, you will be faced with multiple enemies.  So we'll throw poor Leviathn in two hypothetical combats and see how he fares.  

In his first combat, he is flying his trusty Spit V.  He gets seperated from the other friendlies in the area, and a high Spit 9 bounces him.  No problem, he says.  Quick pull towards the bandit, who goes for a shot and misses.  Quick reversal, snapshot, 3-4 rounds land and the Spit flutters to the earth without a tail.  Next, a co-alt La-7 sees two dots and decides to 'investigate'.  He sees a friendly spit fluttering to the earth, and an enemy Spit.  Why, he'll just blaze in there and kill that enemy Spit!  He tries for a Head-On pass, but the enemy Spit ducks him.  He then Zoooooooooooooooooooooooommms, and ends up 12k above the enemy Spit, where he can wait for more friendlies to arrive.  So, at this point Lev is fine.  One down, and one chickenshit in orbit.  The La-7 calls his buddy, and says "Hey d00d.  I gotz a toejamfire down below me!  I can't kill him by myself.  Come help me".  Ok, in warps another La-7, co-alt with Lev but cruising at 570 mph.  So, they take turns running Bore n Zoom passes on him, until they screw up and one guy catchs some Hizooka in the tailfeathers.  The other La-7, staying true to form, runs home and lands.

Now, we'll put Lev in his loaner 109, and see how he does.  Yet again, a higher Spit bounces him after he gets seperated from some friendlies.  Yet again, he makes the Spit overshoot.  This time though, he can't quite get his nose pointed around at the offending Spit.  The Spit goes back up, then comes around for another pass.  Lev manages to make the Spit miss, gets his nose pointed in the right direction, fires.... and completely misses.  He forgot the effective range on the MG/FF is about 150 yards.  All is not yet lost though!  The Spitfire pilot decides to come back down a little early, and Leviathn decides to scissor with it.  Around and around they go in a rolling scissors.  Now, the Spitfire will eat a 109E up in a rolling scissors, because it turns better, rolls better, and climbs better- but we'll say that since this Spitfire pilot isnt very good Lev manages to hold his own.  They are REALLY going around, Leviathn is yanking that ol loaner Emil around like a pro, scissoring up and down at 120-130 mph, sweating bullets because he knows what'll happen if that Spitfire gets a snapshot.

Then suddenly, at the top of the next loop, Leviathn sees an opening!  The Spit pilot didn't throttle back, and he squirts out in front!  Leviathn yanks the stick over and gets ready to fire!  Then, as the Spit is about a second from passing through the gunsight, Leviathn hears "Bang, crunch, crunch, bang, bang", and is spinning out of control.  

The enemy La7 pilot tells his friend "Yea d00d!  I R0x0r!  I just killed another 109!"

"Oh d00d!  Way to diddlyin GO man!"

The End.

Offline OIO

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2002, 01:37:08 PM »
imo, put a poor pilot in a high performing plane and he's easily a match for a vet in a low performing plane.

Its the man, not the machine... unless the other guy has a much better machine.

In your example above urchin, i'd say its accurate... but if it was 1-1, lev in his spit 5 and some riff-raff pilot in la7 or n1k (to use the most common examples) comes in.

It would take lev twice or maybe even three times as much effort and time to bring down a guy that has no clue what he's doing BUT has his machine constantly giving him much higher accel and speed and yes, cannons to spray around. Lev WILL bring him down 1-1, but it takes time. Compared to lev in spit 5 and clueless guy in spit 5, lev would smack him down very quickly. Clueless guy in spit 5 would either pull so hard or bleed E so fast while pulling that neat manouver he saw in Top Gun (close your eyes, think of a big white duck thing and yank the stick) he'd stall or fly into lev's guns. Same thing happened in La7 or N1k, the manouver would be pulled with the la7 or n1k would keep the pilot out of the stall zone (very powerful engines, in n1k its practially torqueless) and constantly pulling manouvers lev will eventually wont be able to follow because HE ran out of E following OR the other guy pulled away.

Now in the MA as you pointed out, you will get 6+ people jumping on you the moment they see twisting movements below them. So what would Lev be able to do in a low perfomance plane, even though he is a skilled pilot, having to work 3X as hard and take much longer time to outmanouver/close in a clueless pilot in high performing plane.. and then get bounced?

So far, turn turn turn on the deck and hope the idjits auger. Some will, the rest will just keep at it till they land a ping and win.

Another day in the MA ;) :D
« Last Edit: November 17, 2002, 01:51:42 PM by OIO »

Offline Innominate

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2002, 01:43:52 PM »
How much is the plane, and how much is the pilot depends entirely on the planes being matched up.  (assuming 1v1 co-e fights where everything else is equal, if you count "Time wasted climbing" as the pilot, then it swings things in that direction)

In identical planes it's entirely pilot skill.  The closer matched the planes, the more pilot skill matters.  The same applies the other way around.  With equally matched pilots, it all comes down to the plane.  

In a matchup with a large gap in performance, i.e.(extreme example here) Spit9 vs a 110C, It takes a huge disparity in pilot skill for the 110 to come out on top.

However, both skill AND aircraft deficiencies can easily be made up for by being a potato.  Wasting lots of time climbing so as to always come in above any enemies.  Ignoring targets that wouldn't result in an easy kill.  And flat out avoiding anywhere too dangerous.

While pilot skill can easily make up for being matched up against a better plane, flying that better plane in the first place is a quick and easy substitute for (or boost of)skill.

Offline Urchin

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2002, 02:18:53 PM »
Oh yes, in identical planes it is all about pilot skill.  In pilot skill I'd include familiarity with the plane, basic overall knowledge (cause most manuevers are fundamentally the same in any plane, the timing just changes), etc.  

And Animal, I know I'm a much better than average 'pilot'.  There are a handful of guys that can beat me in 'similar' planes, and less than that if we are in one of 'my' planes.  However, I still think the plane plays a larger role than the pilot in 'dissimilar' combat.

Offline BUG_EAF322

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2002, 02:35:02 PM »
I's not this or that, gunnery is a great too factor here.

Offline Urchin

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That Old Debate- "plane" or "pilot"?
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2002, 02:38:53 PM »
How could gunnery possibly be 'to great' a factor?  I'd consider that a part of pilot skill.  What use is it if you can make your plane do the most wonderful acrobatic moves, but you can't hit a guy thats 100 yards in front of you?

Now granted, some guns are much better than others, but a pilot with good gunnery can switch between planes and take less time to get accustomed to the different ballistics than a pilot with poor gunnery would.