Author Topic: Suggestion: slip indicator in the HUD (Read 377 times)

LoneStarBuckeye · « **on:** November 19, 2002, 04:26:59 PM »

One of the things I always here from people who fly planes in the real world (not me) is that coordinating turns is no big deal, because of the feedback you get through the seat of your pants. Given the importance of avoiding slip to things like minimizing energy burn due to excessive drag and getting your bullets to go where your gunsight is pointing, it would be nice if there were a slip indicator that is easier to see than the ball gauge. When lining up a shot, it just isn't practical (for me, anyway) to glance down at the ball. Why not put some sort of slip indicator in the HUD? Sure it's not realistic, but neither is not being able to feel the plane slip as you fly.

- JNOV

Blue Mako · « **Reply #1 on:** November 19, 2002, 11:58:19 PM »

You have a HUD in AH? Tell me where you got it because I have never seen one in AH...

DA98 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 20, 2002, 12:22:44 AM »

I agree. Having some indicator of slip at eye level would compensate for the lack of physical input from your ass. I would even suggest an "auto-rudder", (flame suit on!) wich would input enough rudder as to make turns coordinated, for those of us with less-than-perfect equipment (using twist grip joysticks or -gasp!- even keyboard to control rudder).

detch01 · « **Reply #3 on:** November 20, 2002, 12:29:52 AM »

JNOV,
No HUD in AH that I can see. What you've got in front of you is a 1G gunsight projected onto a reflecting glass (virtually speaking of course ). And your bullets always go where your gunsight is pointing - it's just that they go where your gunsight is pointing when they go bang. The gunsight in AH is not a lead-computing gunsight. Sorry I just don't see how trying to use the ball to line up a shot would do anything but make a difficult process an impossible one - and I'm already a bad enough shot as it is. I use tracers and walk them in with rudder without even thinking about the ball let alone looking at it. Being able to see the ball in between me and my tracers (and the target) would just get in the way.
Re: excessive drag. Unless you're already stomping on a rudder I think the drag caused by adverse yaw, power setting changes or P-factor affects (if they're actually modeled in AH they seem awful light to me) are short-lived and at best minor - easily compensated for by the drag "savings" of using less than 1G (but more than -0G) to accelerate momentarily on the down side of a maneuver. Stomping on a rudder will cause all sorts of "excessive drag" and the cure for it is easy - take your foot off the rudder pedal.
I pay attention to the ball when I fly in the real world, but then again, if I flew in furballs and had people shooting at me like they do in AH, I might move looking at the ball to a real low priority in the real world too .

DA 98 - see "Combat Trim" - it's in the help files.

Cheers,

BenDover · « **Reply #4 on:** November 20, 2002, 01:51:29 AM »

whats wrong with twisty sticks? (besides the one on mine in nackered...)

Xjazz · « **Reply #5 on:** November 20, 2002, 07:15:42 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by DA98
I agree. Having some indicator of slip at eye level would compensate for the lack of physical input from your ass.

LOL!

Crystall mode ON:
Maybe some day some company provide Pilot Seat Pillow(tm) which contain two vibra electricmotor, so one vibramotor under left and right ham.

When slip ball is center both motors are totally quiet. Very small slip to left or right dont activate motors. Its kind of dead band.

After certain amount of slip, that side motor where ball is start activate. Vibration volume and / or frequency depends amout of slip (RL pilots give feedback).

Crystall ball mode OFF.

Just a idea how virtualpilot could have some kind physical feedback about slip during the flight.

LoneStarBuckeye · « **Reply #6 on:** November 20, 2002, 07:21:31 AM »

I know there's no HUD in the F-16 sense. I was just using sloppy terminology to refer to the gunsight display. And I know that the gunsight is not lead-computing. But, if your plane is slipping, your bullets DON'T go where you gunsight indicates. That is the point. When you're slipping, your heading (i.e., where you're gunsight it pointing) is not coincident with your plane's velocity vector. Andy Bush has a good article at simhq.com about the adverse affects of slipping of gunnery.

- JNOV

popeye · « **Reply #7 on:** November 20, 2002, 08:47:37 AM »

Just let me turn it off.

detch01 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 20, 2002, 10:29:43 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by LoneStarBuckeye
But, if your plane is slipping, your bullets DON'T go where you gunsight indicates. That is the point. When you're slipping, your heading (i.e., where you're gunsight it pointing) is not coincident with your plane's velocity vector.

- JNOV

Actually JNOV, you make a good point here. There is error introduced by slipping and skidding. But, in that situation your gunsight isn't pointed along your airplane's velocity vector either, it's pointed in the same direction as your guns. If you're slipping or skidding there is some lateral movement of the round and a consequent increase of form drag on the round after it leaves the gun barrel that will produce an error in the accuracy of the shot but we have a historically accurate solution for that available already in AH - tracers and hit flashes. I think introducing a hud with slip/skid information would add an unnecessary complication to an already complicated (albeit partially intuitive) process without making the outcome of the process any more certain.

Cheers,

DA98 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 20, 2002, 10:56:08 AM »

detch01, combat trim does nothing to coordinate turns.

LoneStarBuckeye · « **Reply #10 on:** November 20, 2002, 05:12:52 PM »

Detech01:

I fly without tracers. In any case, if correcting for (or, for that matter, inducing) lateral motion is something real pilots can do intuitively (I believe it is) and there is a good reason to do it (I know there is), doing so in the sim should be made as intuitive as possible. (If there is a better way than putting an indicator in or around the gunsight, that's great, too.) In any case, I would imagine that any such feature would be optionally selectable, so you could always shut it off if you found it distracting.

- JNOV

detch01 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 20, 2002, 06:04:31 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by DA98
detch01, combat trim does nothing to coordinate turns.

You're right - I just reread the section on combat trim. My apologies.

DA98 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 20, 2002, 06:12:47 PM »

Nothing to apologize, I had to test it offline to check if it did anything or not

detch01 · « **Reply #13 on:** November 20, 2002, 06:15:31 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by LoneStarBuckeye
Detech01:

In any case, if correcting for (or, for that matter, inducing) lateral motion is something real pilots can do intuitively (I believe it is)

- JNOV

I am a real pilot and the two "worlds" just don't equate on that level so I disagree with you in so far as the game is concerned. The visual queues are different (no peripheral vision and computer screens are 2d - the 3d is just a good illusion). "Flying by the seat of your pants...those oats have already been through the horse if you get my meaning. Physical queues a pilot gets in the air are often meaningless by themselves- it's the visual queues that confirm the accuracy of the "feeling". As long as the pilot is in a steady "G" state it "feels" as if there is no acceleration (vertically, horizontally or laterally). The pilot at that point could well be flying sideways, in a turn, in a dive, climbing, etc.
One queue that players get in AH that we haven't mentioned in this is the fact that if the ball isn't centered you're going to need stick pressure towards the ball to keep the wings level (the into-wind wing is creating more lift than the out-of-wind wing).

The only thing I can think of as being an advantage in this game for real world pilots is a better than basic understanding of what the controls do. With your experience in the game I seriously doubt that my ability to coordinate turns in AH is any better than yours. My shooting sure doesn't show that I'm any better at it .
I don't think that's the issue here. We can argue about the differences between AH and the "real world" all day (there are surprisingly few glaring differences - AH is the best I've ever seen in that regard). The issue here I think is if a slip/skid indicator on a HUD would be helpful - I don't think it would be. There's too much useless information there because of the added steps needed to interpret it and make good use of it. If AH goes in that direction at all, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts they go with a lead computing sight instead.

Cheers,
asw

DA98 · « **Reply #14 on:** November 20, 2002, 06:38:55 PM »

IIRC, WB2 had a pseudo-HUD with slip indicator and an attitude indicator.