AH and WB compared

[hitech]

Lazs you are making assumptions that are totaly incorect. We don't change the basic performace envolope of flight models for playbalance i.e. we don't slow turn rates from what we think the real plane should do.

Ive been doing some more research as of late to the validity of our instantainious turn rates. Jurry is still out on it,and it is not a trivial issue to verify.

When we do make play balance consestion's we make it very clear what they are and why but the flight envlope has never been somthing we make consecions with.

HiTech

[dosequis]

I've never known Pyro and HT to do anything but try, given the aerodynamic model in hand, and get the closet to the real world data on how these planes acted and flew.

I'm beginning to think filtering -lazs- might not be such a bad idea.

XX

[Kats]

 

it's too lethal compared to how easy it is to hit things

I'm not sure about that. When I was comparing these numbers awhile back, the gunnery %'s were much much higher in WB.

[-lazs-]

Fair enough HT... I will take you at your word when you say that you are staying with whatever model that you have and letting the chips fall where they may.    I don't really care what is wrong but something is very screwy with the turn rates.... it makes em seem very close together and very slow with some planes performing much better than one would expect and others much worse.  

The idea of this thread was to compare.   I still believe that each sim gets some things very wrong and each sim has great "features" that the other needs.   I believe that AH is the slower sim and appeals to a cetain type.   I believe that WB turn rates are no more or less accutate than AH's but in a different direction (faster than real rather than slower than real)and that WB's faster game has a broader appeal.   I think WB's comparitive turn rates more match anecdotal and "real" comparitive tests.   I believe AH's comparitive climb, speed and acceleration more match "real", anecdotal and comparison tests.  

The view system, Z key, in flight radar, dispertion, lack of warproll/stick stir and film are worth the price of admission in AH.   The narrow band of combat detracts IMO.
lazs

 

[SnakeEyes]

Ummm... Hitech, I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I'm going to put you on the spot.

 

When we do make play balance consestion's we make it very clear what they are and why but the flight envlope has never been somthing we make consecions with.

Would you consider spins to be part of the flight envelope?  And would you say that it is accurate to describe spins as being "dumbed down?"

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[Torque]

Ok i'll compare the two Sims....er i vote monthly with my CC, AH is the winner(but lately games has made me very frustrated with wierd crappola con blows, shuddering FE really bad now, bumpy RW and ditches no matter where i land  GRRRHHH!!!)I was a Nate's bellybutton away from deleting it and walking away.Phases aren't they lovely.

[Rickenbacker]

I think every sim out there has "dumbed down" spins, and uncontrolled flight in general (except MS Flight sim which doesn't have spins at all). AH is one of the most challenging, though, in all aspects of the FM, and I also find myself making the same mistakes there as I do in a real plane. This is why I play AH instead of WB (and perhaps the pricing   ).

I took some hits last night, found myself in a pretty flat spin, tried to get out of it... dammit, won't come out. Looking back I notice that I have no rudder. Bailing. Oops, that sheep is awful big...
That at least _felt_ realistic  .


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Rickenbacker

[SnakeEyes]

Rick, I didn't say they didn't.  

My point is that HT flat-out stated that they don't make concessions in the FM, and I'd like to see his response with regard to spins.

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[SnakeEyes]

Hmmm... day rolls past, no resp, not surprised.

In lieu of an answer, I'll create my own:  The answer is that all simulated flight models contain compromises for various reasons:  because of the complexity of integrating it with the rest of the FM, for playability, and for a slew of other reasons.  To flat out state that the FM will never be compromised for any reason is.... well... bullpucky.  Sales talk from a marketing flack.  Misleading.  Etc...

Personally, I would have liked to have heard the Truth, which IMO would sound like... "All Sims and their FMs have compromises with regard to reality.  AH is a simulation, but it is also a game, and there must be a reasonable balance between playability and reality.  Having said that, I can promise you that AH is dedicated to being as real as possible within the context that it must also attract a reasonably-sized paying audience.... blah blah etc."

HT must have thought he was still at E3 or sumthin.

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[Kats]

Snake, If I were HT I would have said that I don't make concessions on the FM for play *balance* because we *ALL* know that there are tons of FM concessions in regards to current technology. Spins are very complicated to model and I doubt our CPU's could handle an exact representation without sacrificing lot of other things.

[hitech]

SnakeEyes to my knowldege I've never called a player a dick in a public forum, but you realy make me want to have a first time.

The resone I havn't responded is simple. We have been putting lots of hours in trying to finish 1.03.

And no we don't compromise spins for the sake of playablity. Spins are one of the very hardest things to get to fall out accuratly in a model. We do them as close to how we think how the real plane would react with in the limits of what our flight model will do.  

HiTech
"Beat it kid you bother me."

[Daff]

Flight Unlimited did a very nice job modelling spins..You didnt even have to pull more than 1G to do it.
While you here, HT, what about inverted lift and drag?.

Daff

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CO, 56th Fighter Group

[SnakeEyes]

Sokey HT, I'm sure I could pass on the finger from BOOM your way.  

In any event, I don't doubt that spins are exceedingly complex to deal with, nor do I doubt that they take many CPU cycles.  Perhaps I'm just a bit perplexed that they haven't "improved" much over the 4 years I've been toying with WB and AH.  Plus there's plenty of talk going *way* back about how spins were relaxed from some of the earlier versions.

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 06-19-2000).]

[Pyro]

LOL!  Well that explains a lot about your posts.  At least I know where you're coming from now.



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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

Most plans are just inaccurate predictions.

[Yeager]

The past few nights I have been in some very interesting spins in 38s and 51s.  

1)  Up against sh, both of us in 51s SW of 5 at around 25k.  The initial pass is slighlty off -nose to nose, I sense he has better energy than I so I flat turn right, gentle like, as he goes for the loop.  Im suckered in sure as toejam but manage to get enough nose pull to see him coming down very slowly into my front glass.  I take the shot and see a single flash center of mass.  He is now pointed down and away and Im doing about 80 ias more or less level with the horizon.  Here I give rudder to get the nose down but manage to get into a nice inside spiral.  I loose about 2k and recover with some effort going very slow.  Sh by now is going up and over again with decent energy and I decide to go for another nose pull hoping to get a miricale burst as I know exactly what he is going to do, when, where, and why.  This time he is a bit farther up and now sailing down for a good shot.  I pull and see him come into my forward view but he is high.  I pull a little bit more but feel my already poor speed ebbing quickly away.  He comes closer to dead center but now I am without motion.  My rear end falls first and im spinning looking straight up.  I know this one will take too long to recover and wait for the inevitable.  Indeed.

A few nights back I was grabbing sharp over 2 for altitude in a 38.  At 12k I spotted a buddy a few Ks higher and to north.  I wanted to get pointed in his general direction and heading but I was already just this side of the horn.  That damned thing went into a violent spin on all three axis and nearly had me pissed.  I recovered and said to myself, I said *shit*.............
Dont do that again numbnuttz.

The spins in EAW felt good and heavy but were a squeak to recover from even at high alt and tended to happen with the slightest pressure on the stick even with damn good speed.  Got to be rediculous actually.  Damn AI never spun from what I recall.

I manage to stay away from spins for the most part but they do get ugly on me from time to time.

Yeager