Author Topic: Affirmative Action - outdated?  (Read 1187 times)

Offline GtoRA2

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Affirmative Action - outdated?
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2002, 01:55:39 PM »
mietla

 





Quote
quality of education has nothing to do with the amount of money you spend per student.



Yeah that may be true, but it sure does help.

And that is no excuse for giving poor kids less money when we are all taxed for it.

Do you think this is communistic?

Offline Eagler

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Re: Re: Miko
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2002, 02:06:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mietla
quality of education has nothing to do with the amount of money you spend per student.


wouldn't that depend on how the money was spent?
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Offline Dago

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Affirmative Action - outdated?
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2002, 02:08:42 PM »
What could possibly be wrong with AA?  

Why not deny opportunities to people who have worked to achieve the chance to enjoy a top education or job?  

If it is wrong to deny these things to black Americans, why is it not wrong to deny it to white Americans based solely on the color of their skin?

If we make these goals (education, jobs) to be the result of achievement and hard work, (results oriented), how can it be viewed as unfair?  

Legislate laws prohibiting discrimination, not requiring it, in a misguided attempt at social change that directly punishes a group of people.

dago
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Offline mietla

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Re: Miko
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2002, 03:26:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GtoRA2
So your saying it is fair that the California school system puts more money into rich kids educations then into poor kids?


It not communism!

I think that is racism built into the systems.

We are taxed, all of us, so should it not go out in equal amounts per student?

Or you think kids in a good area deserve better educations??


Sure it is a commie idea. Why not extend it to food or shelter. Shouldn't all children eat the same and have nice houses?

Why should we allow some people to drive BMW, while other have to drive a Pinto?

It's alway the same stupid argument, sameness for everybody. For the commies, an equally spread misery is more attractive than a prosperity based on merit.

Offline midnight Target

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Affirmative Action - outdated?
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2002, 03:36:55 PM »
I would agree with the elimination of all forms of AA as long as everyone had equal opportunity.


Too bad they still don't.

Offline Dowding (Work)

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Affirmative Action - outdated?
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2002, 03:46:19 PM »
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You would think so, but unfortunately this is not the case. Just read this BB.


Yeah, I thought fascism was dead, but unfortunately this is not the case. Just read this BB.

There's only one statement more ridiculous than yours, and that's the one I've just written above.

"Communists everywhere - oh my!" :eek:

Offline LoneStarBuckeye

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Affirmative Action - outdated?
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2002, 03:59:50 PM »
I attended law school from 1995-98.  I don't know for sure, but I would guess that about 15% of my class were black men and women.  I was acquainted with probably 2/3 or that 15% and not one came from a disadvantaged background.  Some, in fact, came from legitimately wealthy families and attended the finest private schools.  

I don't know what any of their applications looked like, so I can't guess how many would have made it into law school if the admissions process were truly color blind.  I do know, however, that they were not of the class of people that affirmative action was designed to benefit.

I think that affirmative action does more harm than good, but if we're going to have it, why use race as a proxy for disadvantage?

- JNOV

Offline Rude

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Affirmative Action - outdated?
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2002, 04:14:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
I would agree with the elimination of all forms of AA as long as everyone had equal opportunity.


Too bad they still don't.


Who does not have equal opportunity in the USA?

Offline mietla

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Affirmative Action - outdated?
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2002, 04:14:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
Yeah, I thought fascism was dead, but unfortunately this is not the case. Just read this BB.

There's only one statement more ridiculous than yours, and that's the one I've just written above.

"Communists everywhere - oh my!" :eek:


ridiculous? You are one of them (not to mention Boroda).

Offline miko2d

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Re: Miko
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2002, 04:24:23 PM »
GtoRA2: So your saying it is fair that the California school system puts more money into rich kids educations then into poor kids? It not communism!

 Of course it is communism. For every person's right there is another person's obligation. Your "they deserve" is liberal-speak for "they have a right" which is really "you, miko, have an obligation".

 But I do not live in India or California or Duchess county or Queens. I live in Brooklyn. I have no obligation to pay for anyone's children to the detriment of mine. I may be willing to do that - but it's up to me to determine what way and how much - or would be in a coercion free society.
 
 Why don't you follow your collectivist reasonong to the logical conclusion - children cannot get equal education living in unequal material and ideological conditions. They certainly deserve not only equal living conditions but "approved" upbringing. So let's reduce everyone to equal lifestyle or take children away from parents altgether.

 If parents cannot strive to improve conditions of their children, then what's the point of free market economy? Or is it only free market if you can spend money on frivolous stuff like cars and TVs but not on your children? Of course we know how "efficient" non-free-market economies are...

 OK, assume you've prevented me to not outspend some other guy - by making all salaries equal or even took my kids to live in a state-run boarding school.

 How about using my money and/or intelligence, manners and education and lifestyle afforded by those to attract a wife with superior genes, health- and intelligence-wise in order to have superior children who would out-compete the others - by being smart and not handicapped by bad health?
 Obviously even if you raise them in exactly the same conditions as others, the children of parents with my and my wife's IQ (say, 130) cannot possibly come out equally educated as average children - whose IQ is by definition 100! So you would have to assign wifes and breeding privileges as well, right? Otherwise no "equality".

you think kids in a good area deserve better educations??

 How do you think those children "deserved" anything from me? What did they do for me and how could they? How did I incur any obligations towards them? I was not there at the moment of their conception, had no say in selecting the parents, planning their budget, lifeslyle (alcohol consumption, diet), career choices, etc. How come I am held responcible for someone conceiving a child they cannot afford?
 I am all for charity but any charity comes with strings attached - like no drugs or alcohol or SUVs or any more children untill you can afford all those things. There are such controls with governmental aid.

We are taxed, all of us, so should it not go out in equal amounts per student?

 Obviously, some pay more than othes, that's how their commuinities have more to spend per student. That's why people have insentive to work and make money - thus automatically serving other people's needs in a market economy - rather than sitting on welfare like most of population of the Soviet Union did and some americans do.

 BTW, even technically, spending "equal amounts per student" is a stupid idea. Dumb students are not educatable beyong certain level and instead of having they spend boring unproductive time in school, they chould be given basic vocational skills corespondng to their level of intelligence.

 Gifted students should be given as much advanced tutoring as they can absorb - as those are the ones on whom the future of our country will depend. They will rung government, corportaions and research. Fortunately gifted students in US have eniugh grants and schoolarships available to get into the best schools - private grants given without anby coercion.
 Government bureaucracy and teacher's unions would and do spend that money extremely inefficiently. Only natural - since ethey do not earn it.

 Free market economy can provide education for everyone according to their abilities and not deprive people from motivation. Eduation pays for itself. Thus it is profitable to loan people money for education since they will pay the loan with interest and still be in the money. Of course only capable would take such loans and then make sure (or their parends would) that the money is not wasted. College loans are common. So would be school loans if state did not grab control of the education.

 miko
« Last Edit: December 02, 2002, 04:30:09 PM by miko2d »

Offline midnight Target

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Affirmative Action - outdated?
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2002, 04:32:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rude
Who does not have equal opportunity in the USA?


The poor (usually minorities).

Quote
The assumptions that undergird this debate miss an important reality: educational outcomes for minority children are much more a function of their unequal access to key educational resources, including skilled teachers and quality curriculum, than they are a function of race. In fact, the U.S. educational system is one of the most unequal in the industrialized world, and students routinely receive dramatically different learning opportunities based on their social status.


Look HERE

Offline Montezuma

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Affirmative Action - outdated?
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2002, 04:37:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rude
Who does not have equal opportunity in the USA?


Someone who goes to school in a poor neighborhood where there are no AP classes, but who wants to go to a University of California school, where the average incoming GPA is over 4.0.

Offline 2Slow

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Affirmative Action - outdated?
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2002, 04:37:22 PM »
No where on my resume is my race stated.  In the service one had to check off your race type on promotion tests.  One was assured that this had no bearing on you promotion, it was for statistical purposes.

I always checked the "other" box and wrote in patriot, Martian, or something else.

AA is discrimination per Webster.  To make a difference.  To choose.
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Offline GtoRA2

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Affirmative Action - outdated?
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2002, 04:44:52 PM »
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Sure it is a commie idea. Why not extend it to food or shelter. Shouldn't all children eat the same and have nice houses?


What utter BS.


Your saying a kid borne to black parents in a poor neighborhood, should not get the same money from the state, as a white kid borne in a rich area.

I do not think everyone should drive the same car or make the same money, but we should all at least start on equal ground, and right now kids in poor areas do not have the same opportunities as kids borne in other areas.  Not just in the school system, but the school system can be changed. can be changed and should be.  I am talking about Grade/ and High school.

This is not about politics it is just right and wrong.

:mad:



Miko,
 I am not even going to waste my time...

Offline mietla

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Affirmative Action - outdated?
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2002, 05:06:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GtoRA2


Your saying a kid borne to black parents in a poor neighborhood, should not get the same money from the state, as a white kid borne in a rich area.



As I said money spend per student has very little (if anything) to do with the outcome. Do you think that when they build a school in a poor neighbourhood, they pre-build delapidated and already covered in graffiti?

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I do not think everyone should drive the same car or make the same money, ...


Why not? where do you stop your equalizing?

education?
food?
toys?
computer?
house?


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but we should all at least start on equal ground, and right now kids in poor areas do not have the same opportunities as kids borne in other areas.  


that is simply an unachievable utopian dream. Would you delegalize private schools so my kids can;t get a better education that someone else's kids?

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Miko,
 I am not even going to waste my time...


Why not? A discusion involves a dialog. Address the issues instead of attacking the person.