Author Topic: Question to religious "pro-lifers" (only, plz). (Read 2731 times)

capt. apathy · « **Reply #60 on:** December 02, 2002, 10:00:32 PM »

Quote

capt, it doesn't surprise me much when pro-lifers call a fetus a baby. It helps have warm fuzzy feeling about a non-viable bit of tissue and helps justify thier pro-life stance.

It’s not just us pro-life types who use this term. Even your most devout pro-choice, hairy pitted, NOW member calls it a baby when she plans to carry it to term.

And, as far as viability, even a perfectly healthy full term baby is not very viable without intense care. Most children aren't particularly 'viable' till 10 or 12 years old

Toad · « **Reply #61 on:** December 02, 2002, 10:36:49 PM »

Yeah, I could use a little help with this too...

Some wise person please go here:

Inside The Womb

Review the pictures in "Gallery & Graphics: Inside The Womb", look at the pics as they trace the fetus from conception to birth....

and tell me EXACTLY when it suddenly becomes a "person".

Because I'd sure like to know EXACTLY when that is. Sure would make all this abortion debate stuff a lot easier.

So, let me know when you have it figured out EXACTLY with 0% chance of error.

Thanks.

Tyro48 · « **Reply #62 on:** December 03, 2002, 01:13:42 AM »

If the state or Feds can give justification for killing 2 cells or 4 or 8 etc I'm sure with just ever so little rationalization we can justify the 5 billion oh yeah we do watermelon we call it war then its ok to be idiots !@!

Thrawn · « **Reply #63 on:** December 03, 2002, 01:17:00 AM »

Good points.

What if I were to say that viable ment "potentially able to live outside the womb"?

This is what a Massachusetts judge instructed a jury to take the word viable to mean in 1999.

Even then I doubt any one this board would be aboul to point out when this potientiality cocurs. Unless someone is an Obstatrian.

Tyro48 · « **Reply #64 on:** December 03, 2002, 01:40:29 AM »

If we could retrograde the cell count when would we be willing to make the call, where would the judge draw his line in his own DNA? For most of us that call ourselves sane none of us wnat to die why then do we wish to make the call on someone else, why? because it isnt you and your glad it aint!

StSanta · « **Reply #65 on:** December 03, 2002, 03:07:51 AM »

I have refrained from entering this discussion out of respect of mietla.

I'll only add this:

ANSWER THE ORIGINAL QUESTIONS!

Drop attack mode and answer mietlas questions.

A) God says it's wrong to kill children (fetuses, whatever)
B) MANY Christians will allow abortion in cases of rape or incest.

C) RECONCILE the two. Be a consistent Christian.

I've seen a lot of people jumping on the wagon on attack mode. Now I want to see the very same people being consistent. Please, go back to what the thread was about before the hijack, and answer the questions. If you can or dare.

Hortlund · « **Reply #66 on:** December 03, 2002, 04:39:50 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by StSanta
I have refrained from entering this discussion out of respect of mietla.

I'll only add this:

ANSWER THE ORIGINAL QUESTIONS!

Drop attack mode and answer mietlas questions.

A) God says it's wrong to kill children (fetuses, whatever)
B) MANY Christians will allow abortion in cases of rape or incest.

C) RECONCILE the two. Be a consistent Christian.

I've seen a lot of people jumping on the wagon on attack mode. Now I want to see the very same people being consistent. Please, go back to what the thread was about before the hijack, and answer the questions. If you can or dare.

Am I the only one who sees this entire topic as a non-issue? I mean why are you trying to hype it so santa?

God also says that it is wrong to kill, but we are allowed to kill in self defence or in a war. I suppose what really matters here is motive. If you kill a baby just because it feels inconvenient, that might be considered worse than if you kill it because your dad raped you. But who am I to judge?

God gave man a free will. We can do whatever we want with that free will. We should be aware of our actions though. I guess Im coming back to motive here.

What bothers me is when people want to kill babies, but they dont want to call them babies. I suppose it is because it makes it easier for them to live with themselves afterwards.

Thus, a baby becomes a fetus or an embryo, and it is stripped of as much of its human traits as possible. The fact that it is a tiny helpless living baby filled with potential is ignored. People say they have an abortion where they remove an embryo, instead of saying that they killed a baby, that they ended a life.

Tyro48 · « **Reply #67 on:** December 03, 2002, 06:04:24 AM »

Thats the point of the cell count where ya gonna rationalize to God and each other where the drawing of the line in the sand is.

As Einstein said "God has no morales ( sp) " at his/her level its not needed but we on the other hand do. Therefore if you abide by the Bible killing a fetus that has caused you no harm . slighted you in no way shape or form is wrong, its murder.

If your a wait till your on your death bed christian, atheist, or what ever, then claim your remorse you best have only done it once, otherwise you have committed the sin of vain repetition and have yet something else to be contrite about.

Reconcile Gods mind on these matters no thanks Santa I will will back far away from that, God will sort things out as he will. No one here has all the answers, we will always live in the gray areas trying to live or choose not to live to the word.

-ammo- · « **Reply #68 on:** December 03, 2002, 07:51:07 AM »

What confuses me is statements like "many Christians think abortion under certain circumstances is just fine"

Not any Christians that I know and I have been a part of God's redeemed for 10+years now. Being that, I have been in chrusch of some sort since and have known many folks. Now I will say this, there are many people that would like to call themselves Christians and will go sit on a church pew every Sunday. But they are certainly not. If they believe that abortion is acceptible then I have doubts to their sincerity.

It seems that non-Christians are the ones that making alot of those statements.

Wotan · « **Reply #69 on:** December 03, 2002, 08:07:46 AM »

I am a non-Christian and am against both abortion and the death penalty.

miko2d · « **Reply #70 on:** December 03, 2002, 08:18:48 AM »

-ammo- -

So we have only three people so far who proclaimed themselves christians - and their position is absolutely what I believed it should be - no abortion, period.

On a side note, it's funny how many people are so ardent for the federal government to respect our right to free speech or "freedom of choice" but those same people are personally eager to deny that free speech and freedom of choice to their fellow human beings by plugging their agenda in a specific thread dedicated to clearing one narrow issue. Very hypocritical.

I would have though people would be happy to learn something new about the world they live in - like what makes those christians tick and what we can expect from them.

lazs2: the real question is when does human life begin?

In the bounds of this thread and for (at least some) christians the answer to this question is given. Life begins at conception. God says this, you chose that, explain the discrepancy... There is no choice for such a christian here. Christian certainly does have a "free will" but it can only be appied to violate or obey the rule, not determine or modify it.

In context of a coercive society/state (like ours) this question is also answered - for legal purposes life begins - and ends - whenever the law says it does.

In the context of science that question is not a valid one - having no sense or possible answer despite being a string of words arranged in a correct grammatical structure. Science does not handle this parrticular situation in a binary yes/no manner. So science can explain how it works but cannot give us a definitive answer that we could use for legel/moral purposes.

In the context of a free society that question is not semantically valid altogether. The situation is easily resolved and I would be happy to cover it in a separate thread later.

miko

Hortlund · « **Reply #71 on:** December 03, 2002, 08:23:30 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by miko2d
So we have only three people so far who proclaimed themselves christians - and their position is absolutely what I believed it should be - no abortion, period.

[/b]

Just out of curiosity, do you count me as one of those three?

If you do, then I object to your conclusions from my post.

Toad · « **Reply #72 on:** December 03, 2002, 08:28:50 AM »

Well, in the context of one man/woman being true to himself/herself, being able to look himself/herself in the mirror in the morning, the question is indeed valid.

Also, it's a decision that each man/woman will have to make for himself/herself, since there is no definitive answer available to mankind.

You can review all manner of scientific data, church opinions, government opinions and even the pictures in Time magazine.

In the end, you will have to decide for yourself what is "right". Surely none of us would deliberately kill a new human life form at its earliest stages?

So, again, each will have to decide for himself/herself.

I've decided that I don't know when "human life" occurs so I'm playing it on the safest side. I know my personal answer and I no longer have to worry about my position on abortion. I know I'm right for me and the guy in the shaving mirror agrees and is content.

YMMV.

lazs2 · « **Reply #73 on:** December 03, 2002, 08:45:29 AM »

yep toad... that about sums it up for me... I might also add that I have done some retty bad things in my life but... I like myself better when I don't justify em.
lazs

miko2d · « **Reply #74 on:** December 03, 2002, 08:59:54 AM »

Hortlund,

Your statement is nowhere clear enough to determine your position, so I did not make any conclusions from your post.

I see three people so far who've answered the question straight - and all three fall on the "no abortion, period" side.

LoneStarBuckeye - I don't think there's any moral basis for distinguishing between the cases of consensual and non-consensual impregnation. If a fetus is a life, then it's a life regardless of how it came to be.

Kieran - I am ready to let you face the consequences of the choices that you as an adult face. If it were my choice, I suppose I would end abortion... I just don't support abortion in any form.

-ammo- - Not any Christians that I know... If they believe that abortion is acceptible then I have doubts to their sincerity.

There is also Eagler's statement "if you follow the letter of the Christian law - you would not be able to abort for any reason" but since he does not conclude it with a personal position how he resolved it for himself - instead getting distracted to arguing a point he mistakenly attributes to me, I have no idea where he stands.

It would be interesting to hear the thinking of someone who believes himself to be a christian but does support abortion in limited cases for whatever reasons.

miko