Author Topic: we don't want your gun control...  (Read 1707 times)

Offline lazs2

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we don't want your gun control...
« on: December 02, 2002, 08:52:36 PM »
several people emalied me this article from the Daily Telegraph.. one, beetles countryman...  I would say this to my english friends who decide not to be terrorized by the brutal.... better judged by twelve than carried by 6  That might not translate to well but in our country we would rather take our chances with a jury than a burglar... As is noted in the article... there are way more burglaries in england than here.   What isn't said is that 50% of english burglars are "hot" burglars... they don't care if you are home are not... In the U.S. they know if you are home you might shoot em... they don't come with their own guns because the penalties are increased if caught and... they ain't into shootouts anyhow...  Anyhow... for my british friends... good luck to you.

"By Alan Judd
(Filed: 02/12/2002)

A retired man I know who lives in a village was recently awoken by the noise
of his front door being smashed in. He got up, was confronted by four
aggressive burglars and pressed the panic button on his alarm.

A very bright light was shone on him and he was threatened. When he tried to
go downstairs he was sprayed with something that hurt his eyes. The burglars
continued removing his furniture, safe in the knowledge that they would not
be harmed.

The police were prompt, but too late. The scenes of crime people took two
days to appear. They had had 15 other break-ins to attend, mostly commercial
properties, which, it seems, take priority over crimes in which people are
threatened or attacked in their homes.

A neighbour of mine was similarly attacked, only this time it was broken
bottles rather than spray and it took the police two hours to arrive from a
town 30 miles distant. Another couple had their dogs sprayed and were forced
back to their bedroom while the thugs completed their work.

These people live in the Home Counties, not the Wild West, and their cases
are not exceptional. Thieves know how vulnerable country properties are, and
how thinly policed are whole swathes of our countryside. The police say,
with reason, that they are over-stretched just keeping the lids on the towns
and can't spare more than a token presence outside them.

But if the police can't protect us, who can? Only ourselves. There's no one
else.

Another neighbour now sleeps with his shotgun beneath the bed. How else, he
asks, could he defend himself and his family against four men armed with he
knows not what? What would he use - poker, kitchen knife? With any hand
weapon he'd have to grapple closely and he'd probably lose. He needs to be
able to intimidate and, if necessary, harm from a distance, and that usually
means a gun. But what would our authorities say?

They wouldn't like it. First, they would argue that it's better to let the
thieves take what they will than risk injury by fighting them. After all,
possessions are only things, they're mostly insured and nothing's worth a
knife in your pancreas. Secondly, they would urge expensive security
measures - alarms, lights, security marking and bugging, perhaps even rape
gates (an iron grille across the top of the stairs) so that you remain safe
in your cage while your house is cleared beneath you.

These are valid points but they ignore the emotional connotations of "home",
the violation that household burglary represents. Granted, it is not quite
the same as violation of your person but it's so close as to make little
difference. It often involves the threat or fact of physical attack and some
victims of burglary are permanently traumatised; many move home.

Our authorities might also argue that we are, in fact, permitted to use
"reasonable force" in defending ourselves and our own. But what is
"reasonable force"? Beating off frontal attack probably would count, whereas
attacking a fleeing assailant might be construed as retaliation. In
practice, however, distinctions are less clear.

On the one hand, Tony Martin was famously convicted for killing (by shooting
in the back) a thief who had broken into his home. Another man was convicted
for repeatedly stabbing a burglar who had broken into the flat in which he
believed his children were sleeping.

A man who felled a violent schizophrenic who was strangling someone, then
kicked him when he tried to get up and resume, was arrested by the police
(unlike the schizophrenic) and prosecuted by the CPS for kicking. Yet when
another man stabbed to death one intruder and seriously wounded another, the
CPS found his use of force "reasonable" and did not prosecute.

What such cases indicate, wrote The Sunday Telegraph's Alasdair Palmer, is
that the CPS "clearly can't decide where the boundary between the reasonable
and unreasonable use of force lies, and thus what the law actually is".

How can it be right to prosecute people when the law itself is confused and
contradictory? If the lawyers, safe in their offices, can't say what is
right, how can we be expected to weigh up the pros and cons during some
desperate struggle in the dark? Unclear law is unfair law.

It is also a question of attitude. Increasingly, our legal and judicial
authorities seem more concerned with covering their own backs in this
rights-based culture, turning victims into perpetrators and perpetrators
into victims. A friend who kept a pick-handle by his door was warned by the
police that it could constitute an offensive weapon and that he shouldn't
contemplate using it. There was no concern for how he might best deter
intruders, no sense, indeed, that the victim should have a right to defend
himself and his own, and that the intruder was wholly wrong in being there.

Over centuries there evolved an implicit contract between us and the
authorities: in return for our renouncing our right to defend ourselves and
to wreak vengeance on those who harm us, the authorities arrogated those
rights to themselves and undertook to protect us.

But now it's breaking down. They cannot defend us adequately - ask any rural
police force - but are reluctant to redress the balance by permitting us to
do more to protect ourselves. If I killed or injured someone in self-defence
in my own home I would be regarded by the law as potentially at least as
criminal as my assailant, and my assailant's evidence could be given equal
weight to my own.

Yet is it reasonable to expect me, during those few fearful seconds on the
stairs when menaced by broken bottles, to guess what the law would say when
the law itself doesn't know? Or to feel that I must not defend my family, my
property and myself if that means damaging my attackers?

This is deeply unfair, yet we could easily right it. We don't need new,
over-prescriptive legislation, nor a firearms free-for-all. All we need is a
shift of emphasis, of bias, for the courts to make it clear that there is a
strong presumption against prosecuting any occupant who injures an assailant
while resisting invasion.

They won't, of course, without great public pressure. The police, the CPS
and the judiciary are monopoly-holders who dislike the individual
self-assertion involved in our defending ourselves, even when they
demonstrably can't do it for us. They argue that if householders used guns
in their defence, then so would burglars in attack.

Yet in America, where the law is more robustly on the side of the victim,
the rate of domestic burglary is reportedly only one fifth of ours. And in
London the Metropolitan Police will tell you, off the record, why we no
longer hear about armed bank robbers: because a few years ago they started
shooting them.

All we need is for the law-enforcement bias to be clarified and corrected in
favour of the victim, and then applied sensibly. We need a change of
attitude in which victims who put up a fight are praised by the police, not
criticised or prosecuted. Why not try it as a 10-year experiment? We'll
never rid ourselves of violent burglaries but we might significantly reduce
them."

Offline Jack55

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we don't want your gun control...
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2002, 10:11:51 PM »
I thought the letter below was interesting.  I didn't know England had a bill of rights.

****************
The Daily Telegraph
Letters to the Editor

Re: Modern changes ignore old gun laws
Date: 3 December 2002
 
Sir - Alan Judd is hesitant to advocate a "firearms free-for-all" (Comment, Dec 2), but one might recall that, before the First World War, when almost any British citizen could possess and carry any gun without a licence (and frequently did so, for there was a massive domestic firearms industry), armed crime in London ran at only two per cent of what it is today.

In 1946, the year the Home Office first moved against the licensing of pistols for self-defence, there were only 25 armed robberies in London: today, we have more than that every fortnight.

Confusion over our right to self-defence has not arisen because, as Mr Judd at one point suggests, we have "renounced" that capability. It is a right enshrined in our central constitutional document, the Bill of Rights of 1689, which is still in force as statute law. The right to possess arms for self-defence was one of only two rights of the individual guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, and was indeed the ultimate surety of the subject's other liberties.

While it had been the Restoration disarmament of Protestants that provoked the arms provision of the Bill of Rights, the equal right of Catholics to self-defence was guaranteed in the same year, and case law upheld the right to bear arms for self-defence through to the 20th century.

When the first Firearms Act was introduced in 1920, it was recognised that the normal justification for owning a revolver was self-defence; it was only in 1946 that the Labour Home Secretary indicated that this would no longer necessarily be accepted as a good reason.

When the Home Office advised Lord Cullen, in the prelude to the pistol ban of 1997, that "as a matter of policy" British law did not permit the citizen any weapons for self-defence, it was therefore asserting a new policy without legal foundation that simply chose to ignore the Bill of Rights.

From:
Richard Munday, Much Hadham, Herts

Offline Tyro48

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we don't want your gun control...
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2002, 01:22:57 AM »
See the movie Bowling for Columbine

Offline Tyro48

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« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2002, 01:23:59 AM »
Lets hope that no ones kids get hurt with these and if they do prosecute the parents to the full extent

Offline Dowding (Work)

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we don't want your gun control...
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2002, 02:29:57 AM »
And we don't want your myriad postings about your tools. Even beetle has had the good sense to leave this one alone, for at least a few days. Thank god.

The Daily Telegraph is a tory rag, BTW, read by octogenarians and those who would sorely like to be octogenarians. Or at least living in the Empire circa 1936. As for the article, it calls for a change in the approach to victims, not a reversal on gun control.

Quote
I didn't know England had a bill of rights.


Surprisingly, there was a whole world with an entire history before 1777. ;)
« Last Edit: December 03, 2002, 02:34:33 AM by Dowding (Work) »

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2002, 04:02:20 AM »
Dowding!  No, not good sense - I was away for a few days, in Winchester. Speaking of history, did you know that Winchester was once the capital of England - probably before 1777?

Lazs - I read this article with interest. I am all in favour of extra police. Unfortunately, we have a government that is taking us in a wrong direction and cannot do anything right. We have the absolute farce of a Deputy Prime Minister who had been given the task of settling the Fire Fighters' strike, and yet he himself was, in 1966, the instigator of the Dock Strike - Britain's greatest peacetime crisis since the 1926 General Strike. The Telegraph, whose article you quote, recently said of John Prescott's stance: "perhaps the most startling example of poacher turned gamekeeper".

One of this Government's other traits is promising great things, but failing to deliver: More Police, Better hospitals with shorter waiting lists, better education and schools. Taxes rise to pay for it all, but then the promised benefits fail to be delivered - but we're still paying the tax. The police are overstretched and hidebound by paperwork. That's one problem. And the other is that with our prisons bursting at the seams, today's cons often get away with suspended sentences or very brief sentences. Thugs can be seen laughing themselves silly outside our courtrooms having been acquitted of distatseful crimes, and are free to reoffend that evening. Unfortunately, this Government will be with us till at least 2005, and probably 2009 because right now we have no credible Opposition. We need another Margaret Thatcher so badly...

But Lazs, the article goes on to say:
Quote
We don't need new,
over-prescriptive legislation, nor a firearms free-for-all. All we need is a
shift of emphasis, of bias, for the courts to make it clear that there is a
strong presumption against prosecuting any occupant who injures an assailant
while resisting invasion.
I don't want to live in a society in which I feel obligated to sleep with a gun under my pillow. That's not the answer. We need more police. My village can't even afford a Traffic Warden, so we have folks parking on the double yellows at the end of the road, creating a safety hazard. They know they won't get a ticket. The one thing that's worse than not having a law is having a law and not enforcing it. Right now we have the situation of not being able to enforce laws effectively. But a gun in every home is not the answer.

Offline StSanta

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we don't want your gun control...
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2002, 04:03:47 AM »
Living where I do, I'd appreciate if I had the means to effectively protect myself.

Because no one else will. If you live in a safe environment, it is easy to be anti-guns. Living in an environment where there are almost daily disturbances that must be handled very delicately to prevent violence, the equation changes.

I KNOW that if guns were allowed here, overall deaths related to guns would skyrocket. On the other hand, even with that, overall my chances would probably be better, due to the place where I live.

Of course, as soon as I can I am moving, leaving it to be SEP (Somebody Elses Problem). And then I can be anti-guns again.

Just being sarcastic here.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2002, 04:10:09 AM by StSanta »

Offline Tyro48

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« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2002, 06:23:48 AM »
I beleive giving children a good education and giving adults good jobs to feed their kids would cure a great deal of things, what brings guns into our world is fear, greed etc all of our good qualites, the I have to be better than you because.... fill in your own justification, so you would have to get rid of class societys and thats not likely to happen now, how do we overcome the blessing one child receives in a super IQ and the benefits its likely to bring against another kid who struggles just to get through grade school and the opposing dynamics this will create in adulthood multiplied who knows how many times over,  seems the play is destined to play itself out over and over and the gun or somethiong like it will always be there, how the heck are we supposed to find the answer ?

Question is applied over the whole of humanity has the gun prevented what you fear from returning or living in your world, can we kill it all ? Should we?

Why do more white men own guns than any other race?
Why are gun relate d deaths in America on the order of 11k per year, and yet the problems are all still there, most the guns the in city kids get a hold of are sold illegally by the white males that owned them thuis justifying buying more guns and yet solving nothing except alying some of your personal fear !
« Last Edit: December 03, 2002, 06:28:45 AM by Tyro48 »

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2002, 08:27:40 AM »
tyro... read "more guns less crime"  unlike "bowling for columbine' it is not written by a buffoon and has actual facts in it...   You might also be interested to know that over 40% of homicides guns or otherwise are black on black and that the majority of the "children" that mr moore talks about are 13-17 year old gang members.

beetle... I don't ask you to sleep with a gun in your house... only that you allow others to... I believe (and stats point it out) that more guns equal less crime... you would be enjoying the benifiet of others owning guns without haveing to do anything... a free ride for you... It is shirking your duty to your fellow man but if you can live with it then fine.    I don't know what is ment by a "fire arms free for all" but have found that most brits that start to realize that some form of firearms related defense against criminals needs to happen... well... they haven't a clue... they distrust everyone but themselves with firearms ownership...It won't work that way.  You can't be the one to pick and choose and it can't be half assed it has to be ANY law abiding citizen and it has to be accompanied by stiffer penalties for gun crime... get the guns in the hands of the citizens and out of the hands of the criminals... they allready have the advantage in ruthlessnes over a lot of us... why give em the advantage in armement?
lazs

Offline mauser

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« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2002, 11:42:38 AM »
beet1e,

The situation you describe sounds like what's happening here in Hawaii.  Not enough police to go around and the prisons (only a handful here due to NIMB - Not In My Backyard feelings) are overcrowded.  We had to send some inmates to Texas prisons, where they were complaining of being discriminated against :rolleyes: .   Our police aren't being paid enough... folks who want to go into Law Enforcement can be paid more if they relocate to the mainland.  Some already have.  Although violent crime is pretty low here on the average, property crime is high.  Lots of tourists who leave stuff in their hotel rooms, rental cars, finding their stuff gone.  Purse snatchers who drove around shopping malls looking for some unsuspecting female walking too close to the road... reach out grab purse and drive off.  Female is forced to either be dragged or lose her purse.  Happened a bunch over the last few years.  Folks with Honda's here have to be extra careful with their cars.  Hondas are the #1 stollen/broken into cars here.  My wife's friend just had his car broken into last week (Honda Accord).  He had a car alarm that didn't go off, so they suspect it was the installers ripping him off.  My previous car (not a Honda tho) was broken into in our own apartment's garage.  A friend of my brother's was a victim too, in broad daylight.  Anyways, it seems that since prisons are overcrowded, there's a revolving door sort of thing for property criminals.  

It is unfortunate to have to depend solely on Law Enforcement to protect yourself.  It is pointed out a lot over here in the states that LE is NOT obligated to protect the individual.  You cannot sue the police for not coming to help you in time.   Although lost property is not as severe as loss of life, you still had to pay hard earned money for your property.  Someone just made off with your stuff that you worked a few days for, or even a year or more in the case of a car.  And they'll probably just sell/strip it for parts in exchange for drugs/alcohol.  When LE cannot stop property crime, folks can either take the BOHICA route, or try to do something.  News about property crimes seem to contain the word "brazen" more often now.  Some will break in regardless of whether the family is home or not.  That is a fact.  Lazs makes a good point... no one is advocating forcing everyone to go out and buy a gun.  It may not be right for you as an individual.  But for someone who has made the decision to do so...

mauser

Offline Wlfgng

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we don't want your gun control...
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2002, 12:58:32 PM »
Tyro48 the problem with your idea is that the world just doesn't work like that.  
It doesn't matter how  much you educate or house or clothe people, there will always be criminals.

I also agree that self-defense is necessary in certain areas of the country/world.  Where I live there are so few cops (and we like it that way and couldn't afford to have enough cops to cover the county with 'protection' like in the city) that if I relied on police to protect me I'd probably already be dead.


I can't think of anyone in this area that isn't armed in some way.  (firearm that is)

one other points on relying on police to protect you...
how do you defend yourself against a 'bad' cop ?

Offline Tyro48

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« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2002, 01:43:31 PM »
When was the last time any of you were assaulted or bothered by a "criminal in any way"?

Offline Wlfgng

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« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2002, 01:47:23 PM »
criminal: none.. they know we have guns

animal: bear needed to be scared off this year though

Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2002, 01:50:19 PM »
Tyro48
 Why does that mater? I am sure most of us hope we will never be accosted.


I had bum almost attack me not long ago, and a few months back, I had my car broken into, right outside my window.

Go back to your dream world, do not own a gun, and hope you never have to defend yourself.

Live the way you want and do not try and change the way I do.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2002, 02:12:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tyro48
Why do more white men own guns than any other race?


I have a lot of guns. I'm a white man. I have friends that have a lot of golf clubs. Why do white men have so dang many golf clubs?

They don't use a driver to putt with; they have a bag full of clubs that allows them to make choices on the best way to play their favorite game.

I don't use a rifle to shoot a flushed pheasant; I have a safe full of firearms that allows me to make choices on the best way to target shoot and to hunt different varieties and species of game.

Quote
Tyro48Why are gun relate d deaths in America on the order of 11k per year, and yet the problems are all still there, most the guns the in city kids get a hold of are sold illegally by the white males that owned them thuis justifying buying more guns and yet solving nothing except alying some of your personal fear !
[/b]

In 2000 there were 17,000+ alchol related vehicle fatalities in America. Yet the problems are still there. Most of the booze in city kids get a hold of are sold illegally by the white males that owned them or stolen from adults. Thus justifying buying more booze and yet solving nothing except alying some of your personal fear or drowning a few sorrows or just boozing it up for the heck of it.

Remember, booze the only designed purpose for booze is getting people drunk! And then they drive and KILL people! 17,000+ every year in the US alone!!!!!!!!


If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!