Author Topic: Scientific theories  (Read 1549 times)

Offline midnight Target

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Scientific theories
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2002, 11:15:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
Actually, my major beef with the theory of evolution right now is the un-scientific methot they use to defend their theory. Simply put they are ignoring observations that are different from their hypothesis. OR they are drawing too far fetched conclusions from observations so that these observations support their theory.

Creationists cannot change the hypothesis of evolution? Maybe, but there are other hypothesis about the history of life than just the theory of evolution. Most evolutuionists tend to disregard that pesky little fact.

I disagree with your statement that there never can be any creation science. Why not?


Why not?

Are you serious? Do you think a Creationist would be willing to toss God out of the equation if he/she was proven to be uneeded?

Offline -dead-

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« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2002, 11:50:22 AM »
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Originally posted by Hortlund
I disagree with your statement that there never can be any creation science. Why not?


Because science has to be provable/disprovable - creation science's main hypothesis is that an invisible man who is everywhere but can't be measured or proved to exist made everything. Science deems gods as meaningless and indeterminate as Santa and the Easter Bunny. So a theory which involves any god creating stuff by definition fails to make it as a scientific theory. God may have a place in creation, but he's definitely not on the guestlist of the nightclub of scientific theory. "Omnipresent are we, sir? Well we're not having any of that here, sunshine."
« Last Edit: December 03, 2002, 11:53:29 AM by -dead- »
“The FBI has no hard evidence connecting Usama Bin Laden to 9/11.” --  Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI, June 5, 2006.

Offline Saurdaukar

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« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2002, 12:30:27 PM »
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Originally posted by -dead-
Because science has to be provable/disprovable - creation science's main hypothesis is that an invisible man who is everywhere but can't be measured or proved to exist made everything. Science deems gods as meaningless and indeterminate as Santa and the Easter Bunny. So a theory which involves any god creating stuff by definition fails to make it as a scientific theory. God may have a place in creation, but he's definitely not on the guestlist of the nightclub of scientific theory. "Omnipresent are we, sir? Well we're not having any of that here, sunshine."


I KNEW there were still intelligent people left on this board!!

Offline Rude

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« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2002, 01:00:52 PM »
Where did Dowding go?

I'm still waiting for him to explain away the beliefs of his heroes.

Offline mrfish

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« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2002, 01:58:09 PM »
the admitted limitations of science are a sign of the beginning of our 'coming of age' as a species, they're not a short-coming.

once you stop trying to come up with absolutes and 'comfort-food' answers and take on the ugly responsibility of figuring it out from the ground up, you have to be willing and humble enough to be wrong along the way. and you have to be ready to accept that the universe doesn't revolve around humans or even earth.....

how many times have i heard science written off because it doesn't provide for an afterlife or an external being that cares about us.....those thoughts should be transcribed into a time capsule for future, less frightened generations to laugh at.

most scientific advances don't negate the last held idea anyway they just modify it or give us a more complex view of the same thing.

in a few thousand years science will still be chugging along slowly, working for answers the hard way by thinking and experimenting and religions will hopefully just be a bad memory of a more primitive time.

i can't wait for the day when you can tell a kid that people used to actually fight because they believed in different imaginary friends and they look at you like "no way!" that'll be the day, i'll be long gone before that though given the current world....

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2002, 02:15:03 PM »
Thats funny, cuz I see a different trend. People are migrating from "hard science" back to "soft issues" like religion, self fulfillment, morals, values.

Personally I think that man can advance only when we learn to merge the two, science and religion.

Someone once said "man lives not on bread alone" (direct translation from German, thats why it may sound weird)

Meaning that there is more to life than the bare neccesseties of survival. The previos decades, the 80s and 90s were hard, materialistic, driven by science. I think people are tired of that. I dont know how it is in the US, but over here I see a trend back towards the un-materialistic, towards deeper meaning, deeper values. Back to faith, back to religion.

That trend must scare you.

Offline mrfish

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« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2002, 02:28:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund

Personally I think that man can advance only when we learn to merge the two, science and religion.
 


whose religion do we use for that? do we make a new one? what is it's doctrine?

people can come back to soft issues, values and fulfillment all they want - why in the world would you need a religion to do that? don't you know wrong from right by now?

yes a trend toward religion does scare me since no one can agree on one and each seems to assign righteousness to itself alone minimizing the rest of the world - the last thing we need is another obstacle on our way to enlightenment and another few centuries of useless deaths and conflict.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2002, 03:47:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rude
Where did Dowding go?

I'm still waiting for him to explain away the beliefs of his heroes.


I think that StSanta already covered that quite thoroughly.

Look up^

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2002, 03:49:26 PM »
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I think that StSanta already covered that quite thoroughly.

Look up^


Only Einstein, not Darwin, Newton or Hawkin.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2002, 04:11:00 PM »
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Only Einstein, not Darwin, Newton or Hawkin.


Hawking:
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What I have done is to show that it is possible for the way the universe began to be determined by the laws of science. In that case, it would not be necessary to appeal to God to decide how the universe began. This doesn't prove that there is no God, only that God is not necessary. [Stephen W. Hawking, Der Spiegel, 1989]

Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2002, 04:30:01 PM »
Someone asked for links to some of the 'facts' I talked about in the other thread, well heres a start:

http://www.sigmaxi.org/amsci/articles/02articles/Grant.html

These people are pretty confident they've completely anaylyzed and proven evolution and natural selection in finches.

Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2002, 04:33:49 PM »
Personally I'm sick of the trouble religions cause this world.

I can't wait to be rid of them. I know there are good Christians, and good Muslims, but the bad ones far outweight the good ones.

Well, except for the budhists, they're cool :) but then they don't believe in a diety and shoving their beliefs down other peoples throats.


Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund

Personally I think that man can advance only when we learn to merge the two, science and religion.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2002, 04:46:07 PM »
Newton was just a man of his times:

Offline cajun

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« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2002, 06:11:22 PM »
Thank you! that was what I was trying to explain in some of my last posts!

Everything is more of a theory than a fact, in fact a fact is more like a theory then a fact I'd say, at least how we look at a fact.

Nothing is ever 100% certain, or allmost nothing.
"If a tree falls and nobody or nothing is around to hear it, does it really make a sound?"
Sounds crazy, and I'm 99.99999999999999999999999999 9% certain it does, but unless u heard it without anything/anyone that can hear it around its not 100% certain that it actuelly made a sound!
« Last Edit: December 03, 2002, 06:14:51 PM by cajun »

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2002, 06:01:46 AM »
Ok, here comes Hawkin. Hold on to yer hat Hortlund:

One used for Hawking is the following:

"Not only does God play dice, but... he sometimes throws them where they cannot be seen."

As in the Einstein case, it's a matter of figure of speech. in fact, he's reffering directly to Einsteins statement which Einstein of course later had to explain for reporters and theists who misunderstood it.

Let's see what Hawkings says about the human race. It could be interesting to see if he thinks Genesis has it right and whether mankind is something other than an animal:

"We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special. "

About the Big Bang and the omnipotence of God:

"One can imagine that God created the universe at literally any time in the past. On the other hand, if the universe is expanding, there may be physical reasons why there had to be a beginning. One could imagine that God created the universe at the instant of the big bang, or even afterwards in just such a way as to make it look as though there had been a big bang, but it would be meaningless to suppose that it was created before the big bang. An expanding universe does not preclude a creator, but it does place limits on when he might have carried out his job!"

On the necessity of a God for the creation of the universe:

"The quantum theory of gravity has opened up a new possibility, in which there would be no boundary to space-time and so there would be no need to specify the behavior at the boundary. There would be no singularities at which the laws of science broke down and no edge of space-time at which one would have to appeal to God or some new law to set the boundary conditions for space-time. One could say: 'The boundary condition of the universe is that it has no boundary.' The universe would be completely self-contained and not affected by anything outside itself. It would neither be created nor destroyed. It would just BE."

One more:
"The idea that space and time may form a closed surface without boundary also has profound implications for the role of God in the affairs of the universe. With the success of scientific theories in describing events, most people have come to believe that God allows the universe to evolve according to a set of laws and does not intervene in the universe to break these laws. However, the laws do not tell us what the universe should have looked like when it started -- it would still be up to God to wind up the clockwork and choose how to start it off. So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator. But if the universe is really completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would have neither beginning nor end: it would simply be. What place, then, for a creator?"

There's much more, but I suppose this will have to suffice, as it proves without a doubt that Hawking have strong reservations about the Christian deity. Let me know if you need more: undernet #atheism has some more direct ones. Would have to install an irc client though.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2002, 06:15:51 AM by StSanta »