Author Topic: Religion linked to optimism  (Read 2361 times)

Offline mrfish

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Religion linked to optimism
« Reply #60 on: December 06, 2002, 02:51:34 PM »
as christians you have to look outside of your immediate existence for moral guidance and meaning. i don't. i find meaning in just being alive - that's optimism to me. there's no devils and threats and angry gods just responsibility for all of us to take it upon ourselves to help create the kind of world we want to live in.

Offline funkedup

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Religion linked to optimism
« Reply #61 on: December 06, 2002, 02:52:46 PM »
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Why do people keep saying you get "eternal life"?


Read the Gospels.

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If that's the case, regardless of what you do on this planet, when you die, you still live for ever...


That's not what it says.  The conditions for recieving eternal life are pretty clearly laid out.

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so how can you be expected to follow something and be rewarded for following it.. if there is no one way to follow it?


That's an issue that the New Testament deals with.  The more confusing and detailed rules are in the Old Testament, part of the laws that God created for the people of Israel.  The New Testament is all about Jesus coming and replacing those old laws with a New Covenant, where Eternal Life is offered with relatively simple and clear conditions.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2002, 03:00:09 PM by funkedup »

Offline funkedup

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Religion linked to optimism
« Reply #62 on: December 06, 2002, 02:54:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mrfish
as christians you have to look outside of your immediate existence for moral guidance and meaning. i don't. i find meaning in just being alive - that's optimism to me. there's no devils and threats and angry gods just responsibility for all of us to take it upon ourselves to help create the kind of world we want to live in.


That's a much better argument than your previous one.
So maybe Atheists are more optimistic in the short term but Christians are more optimistic in the extremely long term.  :)

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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Religion linked to optimism
« Reply #63 on: December 06, 2002, 02:56:17 PM »
What are the gospels? They aren't in the bible, aren't gospels the sermons the priest says in each mass?
-SW
« Last Edit: December 06, 2002, 03:02:45 PM by AKS\/\/ulfe »

Offline funkedup

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Religion linked to optimism
« Reply #64 on: December 06, 2002, 03:02:12 PM »
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
I don't own a bible, that's what I was taught in a Christian H.S.
-SW


No excuse.  :)
http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=niv+online

I'm sure teachings vary.  The stuff I'm saying comes from how I read it.  I'm not some kind of great Bible scholar though.

Offline mrfish

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Religion linked to optimism
« Reply #65 on: December 06, 2002, 03:02:28 PM »
i can't get past what a diety would have to be like to create this world funky. it just seems like sloppy planning, poor execution and a real lack of moral fibre.  i actually think their might be some kind of supreme thingy - i'm not saying there couldn't be like atheists do- but i am extremely confident it's not the one from the bible if it exists at all.

god was too brilliant and precise with things like the forces and too weak on things like suffering subjects.

the way i see it god would be way beyond all the petty stuff from the bible but i know you don't agree

oh well bong hit?:)

Offline funkedup

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Religion linked to optimism
« Reply #66 on: December 06, 2002, 03:04:15 PM »
Well fish you don't have to convert right this minute.  I was just trying to express how it is optimistic.

BLUGBLUBBLUGBLUGGURGLESPLASH
COUGH
HERE
:)

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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Religion linked to optimism
« Reply #67 on: December 06, 2002, 03:06:21 PM »
Okay, so the gospels are the bible... one in the same, just the different writings of each author.

In that case, I'm somewhat familiar with them.. and like I said, I've always heard "they're open to interpretation".

So at the church I was taken to as a kid, they told me life was eternal happiness in heaven (in the firmament) and hell was eternal torture/damnation with your body.
-SW

Offline funkedup

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Religion linked to optimism
« Reply #68 on: December 06, 2002, 03:11:45 PM »
SW the Gospels are books that tell about the life of Jesus.  What he said and did when he was here.
Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #69 on: December 06, 2002, 03:13:14 PM »
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
So at the church I was taken to as a kid, they told me life was eternal happiness in heaven (in the firmament) and hell was eternal torture/damnation with your body.


Yep me too.
As a kid in Catholic church I got taught that you had to give confession to a priest and you could do good acts to help your chances of getting into heaven, etc. etc.

But actually reading the books as an adult, I got a much different message.  A lot of the stuff they teach in churches is not actually in there.

Which is why a lot of people who believe in Christ are not fond of "Religion".

Offline Vulcan

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Religion linked to optimism
« Reply #70 on: December 06, 2002, 03:30:03 PM »
Hortland why do you keep refering to Aetheism as a faith?

And if Christians are such optimists, whats with getting crucified, flooding the world, and the day of judgement  (you can't tell me an optimist came up with the plagues, disease, and 4 horsemen)? Doesn't sound very optimistic to me :D

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #71 on: December 06, 2002, 03:32:32 PM »
Vulcan it's semantics.
By definition, Atheism is the belief that there are no gods.  Atheists have faith that there are no gods.

Agnostic is the term used for those who are undecided on the subject.

Offline Charon

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Religion linked to optimism
« Reply #72 on: December 06, 2002, 03:45:03 PM »
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Atheists must face the fact that their faith precludes any such thing as absolute morality. That morality, in all its forms, is simply man-made and has no ultimate bearing on anything. You can be a Hitler or a Stalin and it will not matter. You can be a Ted Bundy, a Pol Pot, a southern slave owner, or a mad priest during the Spanish Inquisition. You can abuse a little boy or girl, rape, pillage, steal, maim, torture, and kill all you want with no ultimate consequences because nothing is really right or wrong. All morals are man-made concepts and mean nothing and the picking and chosing of which morals you will adhere to is, at its base, a useless and empty exercise that signifies nothing.


As I believe it has been touched on, for evangelical Christians all Hitler, or Stalin or Ted Bundy has to do is say, "I accept the Lord Jesus Christ as my savior" some seconds before human death and all that sin is washed away. I see no morality in this, no higher ethos beyond feed my ego and be my servant. Just ask Jack Chick :)
Gun Slinger

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wonder what the ratio is for bad/good childhood: athiest

wonder if its higher than say bad/good childhood: religious person

how ones early life experiences color their perception of a divine

my guess would be a higher percentage of non-believers had a traumatic experience early on which pointed them on their belief system path


Eagler, is it possible for you to comprehend that some people, when asked to believe in something out of blind faith, look at what they're asked to believe in, weigh the facts (or lack there of), and say: "Sorry, you would have had me from biblical times through the middle ages, but after the renaissance I need something more." Perhaps some of us didn't have the indoctrination that others had, or didn't find some gaping hole in our lives that needed filling by the sense of acceptance and community organized religion can provide. Perhaps some of us just ask more questions. For you, your beliefs make natural sense. Speaking for myself, as an agnostic, they don’t. It’s a decision I arrived at naturally, and without any childhood trauma to steer me from your vision of the right path, in a world filled with competing visions of the right path to god.

Maybe there is a god (or a demigod), maybe not. I would like to know who created god, and what god did in the timeless years before he created Earth. Maybe it's even a Christian god, though the biblical tales don't strike me with any more believability than Zeus or Odin. Maybe there is a purely scientific origin. Unfortunately, my ability to grasp things like infinity is a bit limited right now, perhaps after several million years of evolution when I grow one of those big sci-fi brains you see in the b-movies.

Until then, I was born, which makes me one of the ultimate lottery winners. The odds against my individual birth - egg and specific sperm, right month etc. are astronomical. My parents could have had another child certainly, at a different time and place, but it wouldn't have been me. And, to be born into a prosperous society instead of some 3rd world toejamhole - another major score. To be healthy - wow, pretty cool. Great friends, great family, wonderful wife, kids on the horizon - hard to complain or ask for much more. Death is a great bummer (and it’s bugged me since I first started pondering mortality in about second grade), but, it's part of the deal. No one gets out alive :) Weighed against all the positives the lack of an afterlife can be looked at as just part of the program, and becomes more acceptable.

Charon
« Last Edit: December 06, 2002, 03:56:11 PM by Charon »

Offline Vulcan

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Religion linked to optimism
« Reply #73 on: December 06, 2002, 04:00:04 PM »
How can faith be related to not believing in the existance of something for which there is no physical or logical proof of?

I do not believe <> faith.



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Originally posted by funkedup
Vulcan it's semantics.
By definition, Atheism is the belief that there are no gods.  Atheists have faith that there are no gods.

Agnostic is the term used for those who are undecided on the subject.

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #74 on: December 06, 2002, 04:19:50 PM »
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How can faith be related to not believing in the existance of something for which there is no physical or logical proof of?

I do not believe <> faith.


Vulcan do you:
1. Not have faith that there is a God?
or
2.  Believe that there is no God?

If the answer is 1., you are an agnostic and the term faith does not apply to your belief.

If the answer is 2., you are an atheist, and faith applies.

I'm not making this stuff up BTW, common knowledge.