Author Topic: Religion linked to optimism  (Read 2362 times)

Offline funkedup

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Religion linked to optimism
« Reply #75 on: December 06, 2002, 04:25:04 PM »
PS If you firmly believe there is no God and you can prove it then you are an Atheist but faith doesn't describe your belief.  If we take faith as meaning "belief without proof", but you have proof, then you don't have faith.

In that case you are either deluded or you need to share your theorem with the rest of us because you are the greatest logician and philosopher in recorded history.   Noone has ever proved conclusively that God does not exist.  :)
« Last Edit: December 06, 2002, 04:30:03 PM by funkedup »

Offline Vulcan

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Religion linked to optimism
« Reply #76 on: December 06, 2002, 04:49:56 PM »
OK, theoritical question for you.

A tribe exists on some lonely pacific island.

They do not know - and of course therefore believe - of the Christian 'god', and therefore are atheists. How can you call this faith there is not a god?

Its only 'faith' from the Christian perspective.

ie, you believe in god and have your 'faith'. You see my disbelief in god as 'faith'.

I see your belief in god as 'faith' as you believe in something not proven to exist. You said it your self, faith = "belief without proof" . I do not believe, if there is a god may he strike me down with lightning right now.... hmmm gee I'm still here I theres my proof.

You're stuck inside the Christian 'square' in your thinking. Its like when I get the bible-bashers, and I ask the usual questions like where is god can I see him etc. And they do the faith thing, and I do the I have no faith in something I can't see. Then they do they "ahhh but you believe in air right? and you can't see air" and I do the "well actually you can see air, see the colour of the sky? thats air refracting the suns rays, ever see your breath in the morning? thats air with moisture in it, ever see the shimmering air over a hot road... whoa thats right you see air all the time". IE, they're stuck in what they've been taught to think.

BTW, did you know atheists aren't necessarily non-religious?

Offline mrfish

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Religion linked to optimism
« Reply #77 on: December 06, 2002, 04:55:14 PM »
i'd see your islanders as non-theistic which is most analagous to agnosticism.

an atheists says "i know there is no god for certain"

an agnostic says "maybe there is maybe there isn't...who cares?"

a non-theist says "what's a god?"

i think what they mean by atheism and faith is that it takes a kind of faith to say there is no god because it's improvable like a belief in god. since it's improvable it requires faith. that's why atheists are dreaming just as much as religious people (shameless plug for angosticism ;))

Offline funkedup

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Religion linked to optimism
« Reply #78 on: December 06, 2002, 04:56:00 PM »
Vulcan, I must not be communicating properly.  The concepts I'm trying to explain are commonly accepted by believers and nonbelievers alike.  If you insist on a personal interpretation of language, you are welcome to do so, but be warned that others might not be able to understand you.

Offline weazel

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Am I religeous?
« Reply #79 on: December 06, 2002, 04:59:32 PM »
"BTW, did you know atheists aren't necessarily non-religious?"

I guess I am an "atheist", but only because I don't believe in the god of the Bible or that Jesus was his son on earth.

I do believe there is a higher power responsible for our being here...but what or who it may be is a mystery I will never solve.

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #80 on: December 06, 2002, 05:00:01 PM »
Fish, take over here please.
I guess he needs someone whose thought is not limited by some "Christian square" in order to explain the English language to him.  :rolleyes:

Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #81 on: December 06, 2002, 05:02:38 PM »
Yes but the when you explain to these Islanders what I a god is, odds are they might turn around and say 'thats a ridiculous idea, I don't believe you'.

Now, they are atheists. They don't believe your story about god. There still exists no definition of faith here to me.

Now before you go arguing whether they would believe you or not, I have sat down with several non-christians, and given them a brief run down on christianities beliefs, and their exact reaction was the one above. And it was a very unbiased 'this is what christians believe' in explanation, ie I didn't do a 'this story is BS' thing.

You cannot definie non-belief in something not proven to exist as faith. Therefore you cannot liberally label atheists as a 'faith'. We simply do not believe your story.

Offline Vulcan

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Re: Am I religeous?
« Reply #82 on: December 06, 2002, 05:07:08 PM »
One of the largest religions practised in the world is at its heart atheistic. Check the definitions below, they do not preclude each other. Weazel you'd be agnostic... I think :)



a·the·ist    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (th-st) n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods

re·li·gion    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (r-ljn) n.
Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.


Quote
Originally posted by weazel
"BTW, did you know atheists aren't necessarily non-religious?"

I guess I am an "atheist", but only because I don't believe in the god of the Bible or that Jesus was his son on earth.

I do believe there is a higher power responsible for our being here...but what or who it may be is a mystery I will never solve.

Offline mrfish

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Religion linked to optimism
« Reply #83 on: December 06, 2002, 06:03:37 PM »
a·the·ist ( P ) Pronunciation Key (th-st) n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods

- on what evidence do they deny the existence of god? how can they prove there isn't a god? if they don't have proof but hold a belief then they necessarily have faith.

if the islanders tell you "there's no god period." then they are atheists but you've changed the circumstances of your argument. in the first version they had no conception of god now they specifically deny it.

for what it's worth, both of your points are crystal clear aren't they- it's just a semantics argument.

;)

Offline weazel

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OK, I'm agnostic then.
« Reply #84 on: December 06, 2002, 06:07:49 PM »
In 1994 I joined a 12 step program during a very nasty divorce and came to know a "higher power".  

For awhile I thought it was the traditional christian god of my youth...until reality beat me over the head enough to abandon those fairy tales.

N.A. saved my life, and it's the reason why I hacked on Udie and others for smoking dope a few months back....and part of why I'm so anti-Bush as well.

As a recovering alcoholic/addict who has freely admitted my problem/disease, I cannot trust another person who has not....especially one with the power the president holds.

Life is so much simpler when you finally abandon the things that are holding you back, mine was drink & drugs, then organized religeon.

Not to say the Bible is bad as the same human problems exist today as 2000 years ago, and solutions to many contemporary problems can be found in it.

In the end dumping all three eased my load considerably, but did leave a lot of unanswered questions to ponder.

I'm leaving those questions to people smarter than me to figure out.  :D

Offline Vulcan

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Religion linked to optimism
« Reply #85 on: December 06, 2002, 08:23:43 PM »
The difference is 'denying' god exists. Its more a question of asking for proof as opposed to denying.

Herein lies the difference, from my point of view, between describing christianity as a faith and atheism as a faith. For example, should god reveal himself (if he exists) to an atheist, then the atheist would have no trouble in believing in his existance. However flip it round, provide absolute proof to a Christian of say the source of life (say someone replicated it in lab or something) that proved beyond all doubt that god didn't exist and that life was created by some random crap happening, I guarantee you the christian will twist it in some way to suit their explanation of christianity the bible and creation (sort of like when the bible starts becoming 'don't take its meaning literally', or 6 days actually means 6 universe days which equals 6 gazillion years or something).

Atheism is not a doctrine, or set of beliefs. It is an exclusion from a set of beliefs, and therefore not a faith.

I don't like being lumped into faiths because I'm an atheist AND I'm not religious.


Quote
Originally posted by mrfish
a·the·ist ( P ) Pronunciation Key (th-st) n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods

- on what evidence do they deny the existence of god? how can they prove there isn't a god? if they don't have proof but hold a belief then they necessarily have faith.

if the islanders tell you "there's no god period." then they are atheists but you've changed the circumstances of your argument. in the first version they had no conception of god now they specifically deny it.

for what it's worth, both of your points are crystal clear aren't they- it's just a semantics argument.

;)

Offline whgates3

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Religion linked to optimism
« Reply #86 on: December 07, 2002, 01:45:36 AM »
crossing the street w/out first looking both ways is also linked to optimism

Offline GWH

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« Reply #87 on: December 07, 2002, 09:21:31 AM »
Hehe, has anyone here ever cracked open a good text on the subject of atheism - many dictionaries rarely describe it adequately.  ;)  But, from what I've read, I think Vulcan is getting it right.

Atheism is commonly defined as the belief that gods don't exist, which is partially correct while also being partially uncorrect.  Atheism, technically speaking, is defined as a lack of belief in the existence of gods (literally, a-theism means lack of theism).

Think of atheism as a Venn diagram with a small circle inside a large circle.  The large circle encompasses what could be called 'weak' atheists, those who simply don't believe theistic claims (undecided, skeptical due to lack of supporting evidence, never introduced to the concept of god before, etc.), while the smaller inner circle is composed of 'strong' atheists, those that take it one step further - not only don't they believe in gods, but they also believe that gods do not (or cannot) exist.  While there are significant philosophical differences between 'lack of belief' and 'belief in lack' for discussion and debate purposes, both are to be considered atheism.

In most philosophy texts on the subject, it's the 'weak' atheist POV that's described as the general definition of atheism in discussions, since it encompasses both the weak and strong positions.  However, in most common language and in a few books on the subject, it's the strong version that's used.  Some people much prefer the strong version because it's arguably easier to critique and debate against (ie, "see, atheists have faith, too") than the skeptical weak position (which does not involve anything like religious faith).  

I've even come across some people who go so far as to say atheism = antitheism, although they don't support this claim well and, considering the prefixes a- and anti- alter words differently, I think they do it because of the stronger negative connotation of anti-.  Some authors even promote the idea of an insidious Evil Atheist Conspiracy born out of the 'atheist worldview' which I find amusing, since atheism cannot be a complete worldview in itself, but rather one component of a worldview.

Agnosticism is often thought of as the middle ground for the undecided between theism and (strong) atheism in common language, however agnosticism technically deals with a different subject than belief in the existence of gods.  Agnosticism was created by Huxley when he became frustrated with his peers (both believers and non-believers) speaking about the supernatural as though they actually had some hard knowledge of the subject.  :)  Agnosticism is a position on the 'knowability' of gods (an agnostic ascribes to the position that gods are unknowable to humanity), hence it is possible for an agnostic to be either an atheist or a theist.  In fact, there is actually no recognized middle ground theism and atheism, since either you believe or you don't believe in the existence of gods.  

Phew, that ends the lesson for today.  :)  For more information, read the alt.atheism FAQ, visit the Secular Web, or I could even recommend a few books to you.  You'll find these sources will generally jive with what I've written here.  And stay away from Ravi Zacharias and his ilk, since their books on the subject are garbage.  :)

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Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #88 on: December 07, 2002, 10:13:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by funkedup
SW the Gospels are books that tell about the life of Jesus.  What he said and did when he was here.
Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.


You forgot Timothy.

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #89 on: December 07, 2002, 10:35:18 AM »
I listed the canonical ones.  There are a bunch of others too.