Author Topic: Deterring suicide attacks...  (Read 578 times)

Offline AKDejaVu

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Deterring suicide attacks...
« on: December 07, 2002, 11:06:02 AM »
There are two different areas that require different solutions.  Ships and fields need different solutions.

Ships:
Delay the damage inflicted by the bombs for 30 seconds.  If the attacker that dropped the bombs dies within that time, less damage is done (say 25-50%).  This is needed because there is no rebuild time on a CV once it is destroyed... and you can't make it re-appear once destroyed.  This also adds some penalty for dieing to both score and strategy.

Fields
All bombs inflict 100% full damage.  If someone dies within 30 seconds of releasing a bomb, firing his guns and hitting the field, then wherever he crashes, 5 minutes is knocked off of the rebuild times for all structures within a specific distance.  That means if they were just shooting a hangar and plowed into it... rebuild time reduced for all items around it.  If they were trying to straff a spawner, then rebuild time is reduced 5 minutes.

AKDejaVu

Offline fffreeze220

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Deterring suicide attacks...
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2002, 11:08:59 AM »
Sorry but that is to gamey IMO.
Then u never now if maybe suicide dweeb bombed the hanger and u still think he stays down 15 minutes and instead he pops up again after 10.

Perk bombs and allow lvl bombers only to release bombs in bombsight view and autopilot on.
Freeze

Offline AKDejaVu

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Deterring suicide attacks...
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2002, 11:19:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by fffreeze220
Sorry but that is to gamey IMO.
Then u never now if maybe suicide dweeb bombed the hanger and u still think he stays down 15 minutes and instead he pops up again after 10.
What is more gamey... knowing exactly when a hangar is going to come back... or not knowing?

It affects the game aspect without introducing an unrealistic element.  You must allow some damage to occur or things are gamey.  The only thing you can really impact are rebuild times and damage without getting silly.

AKDejaVu

Offline Pongo

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Deterring suicide attacks...
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2002, 11:54:17 AM »
Ignore the impact on fields..the two issues are too different.
On carriers,
Change the data model on the carrier so its only hurt by GP bombs if they hit in an elevator. And it still takes 2k in an elevator to kill the ship.

GP bombs should be useless against the Cruiser.
Rocktets I believe are GP type warheads. They sould be considered such for anti ship puposes in the game anyway.

If you use AP bombs then the bomb can hit anywhere. But AP bombs are only available for Dive bombers and Kamakazis.
A kamakazi is a 50 perk point load out that is available for historically relevent planes. IE the Zero and several other Japanese planes as they become available.

Kamakazis can not drop thier bombs and get no credit for landing. The only way they preserve thier 50 perks is if they hit a ship. They have no cannons or mgs loaded in their airplanes..
If they hit a ship(sink or not) they dont loose their perkies.  instead they get awareded perk points. 25 perks for a DE, 50 for a Cruiser and 100 for a Carrier.

A Kamakazi has an eny value like a 262. IE killing a kamakazi is equivilent to killing a 262 for perk point purposes. They should also have a kamakazi icon.

I think this kind of thing would show how deadly this tactic was historically. Show the emphasis the Allies put on defeating the threat, show some of the deliberate forthought involved in the kamakazi mission. And show the cost to the attacker and the reward to the attacker.

It would also show the value of dive bombers..

If you also made all torpedos go twice as fast, twice as far so they could have a chance of delivering thier weapons against the fleet you would see how effective they were as well...But ww2 fleets didnt cruise at 35knots..so expecting a weapon built to hit a 20 knot target to work against a target twice as fast is a bit silly.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2002, 12:01:41 PM by Pongo »

Offline Innominate

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Deterring suicide attacks...
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2002, 11:57:52 AM »
Not only is it gamey, but you'd get reverse suicide attacks.

Instead of suicide attacking, people will switch countries and do it to thier own countries field to resupply it.

Question:
Whats the difference between someone who divebombs the hangar then hits the ground a moment later, and someone who  drops thier bombs, pulls out, circles a bit, maybe vulches a person or two, and then dies?


The only way to deal with suicide attacks is to reduce the amount of ordnance needed to destroy things, and at the same time make ordnance less available.  (i.e. perked 500 and 1000lb bombs for jabos)  The same thing also helps deal with much of the bomber problem.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2002, 12:02:02 PM by Innominate »

Offline popeye

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Deterring suicide attacks...
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2002, 11:58:50 AM »
I think a down-time modifier would work, but might produce friction among players, when the vultchers auger and negate the damage done by the "serious" strat players.

A different approach would be to penalize the individual player by denying him ordinance for some time period after a suicidal death.  IMO, this would be less gamey than adjusting down times, or resurecting dead structures.
KONG

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Offline AKDejaVu

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Deterring suicide attacks...
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2002, 12:16:53 PM »
Umm.. innonimate... it would only apply to enemy structures... not friendly ones... much like damage currently is.

AKDejaVu

Offline AKDejaVu

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Deterring suicide attacks...
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2002, 12:52:21 PM »
One other effect this idea could have is making massive attacks on a base less effective.  The more people you take.. the more you run the risk of the attack actually being counter-productive.  It would make the "serious strat players" think twice on planning attacks.

As for "Whats the difference between someone who divebombs the hangar then hits the ground a moment later, and someone who drops thier bombs, pulls out, circles a bit, maybe vulches a person or two, and then dies?"...

I've said before... be carefull of what you wish for, you just might get it.  But the complaint seems to be unrealistic behavior in regards to dropping ordinance.  This is adressing that.  The issue you have brought up exists regardless.. though if he dies within 30 seconds of vulching someone on the runway, he has just reduced the rebuild time at the field.

Seems you want to make the attack groups move away from the mob mentality and actually towards organization.  Would that be good or bad news for the enemy?  I don't know.  But it would be one step towards more realistic behavior.

AKDejaVu

Offline Soda

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Deterring suicide attacks...
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2002, 11:24:41 PM »
I hate "Gamey" fixes, but to be dead honestly the whole CV thing is pretty gamey already.... it doesn't get damaged, it only dies outright.  It doesn't slow down in turns, it travels at top speed all the time, even in turns.

I'd:
Do what Pongo suggests with bombs, making AP bombs, and planes that really were used vs. anti-ship, give more damage.  The Val and SDB are both useless because they barely have the ability to get to a carrier, and then even if they get there they carry less bomb load than almost anything else.  Change that, make them have more effective anti-ship bombs.  Secondly, improve torpedos.  Give them more range, and more speed, plus give some method of aiming while at the fringes of ack cover.  Take off all icons from 5 inch guns, give them a chance to survive when in low... with icons on it's impossible.  To stop the silly turning CV issue, where the CV can instantly change course at top speed, instead make any course change take up to a minute before it occurs.  You submit it, then a random amount of time up to a minute (or maybe more) elapses before the CV actually turns.  You wouldn't get CV's instantly turning out of torpedo attacks then.  You could also put a red/green light on the back of the island on the CV and alert planes about to take off that the CV is about to turn (a side benefit).  Remove any effects of planeguns/rockets from ships... a .50 cal shell hitting the CA should have no effect.  Also, give the shore guns some teeth, both in hitting power, and in some tools to help with aiming.  I simply can't believe that a shore gun would not have some sort of aiming device to help.  The CA sure does... it's a critical difference in the game.

Against airfields, I seem to feel the problem is with the large numbers vs. small numbers of important targets, and the impact that a single suicide attacker can make if determined.  You rarely see suicide attackers make a significant impact at a large field because they simply can't put in enough suicide sorties to really make much of a difference.. even if there are 2-3 of them making constant attacks.  Thus, the solution to me seems to be to increase the number of targets, and make each less important, so no one person can completely change the battle, yet a couple of guys, even in suicide attacks, can at least make a difference.

Concept, delete hangers at airfields and make aircraft revetments instead.  Make 1 revetment for each plane in the game, or maybe double up.  Spread them around so a single suicide attack will get 1, but someone who can make 2-3 passes without dying can likely kill 2-3 and still escape.  Also clump them a bit so bombers have something to carpet bomb rather than pinpoint bomb, and might kill several in one pass.  Each revetment controls the spawning of 1-2 planes, and destroying it will stop the spawning of that plane type for the 15 minutes it takes to rebuild.  Make the position of the planes types to each revetment totally random so there is no pattern and people don't immediately target specific revetments to kill certain planes.  Even make the revetments change over time so one field isn't constantly the same.  This would allow a single attacker to make a difference, knocking out a couple of planes, but probably not end the fight completely with 3 suicide attacks into 3 hangers, knocking out all fighters.  It would also give a benefit to survival, at least until you had made your 2-3 passes in something like a P-47 and dropped all your bombs.

One last point, give back the ability to crater airfields and damage runways... that alone might make bombers much more useful.  I remember the days of broken gear on heavily cratered runways, I don't think it was a bad thing.

Dunno, just thoughts.  The airfields might even look much cooler.

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Offline Innominate

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Deterring suicide attacks...
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2002, 01:29:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKDejaVu
Umm.. innonimate... it would only apply to enemy structures... not friendly ones... much like damage currently is.

AKDejaVu


So when a bishop field gets badly damaged, I switch to knights or rooks, and suicide into the damaged bishops field, which then repairs.

Not only would it be faster than resupplying, there would be no way for them to stop me.

Offline AKDejaVu

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Deterring suicide attacks...
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2002, 10:31:50 AM »
And a scant 12 hours later, you could go back to your own country.

:rolleyes:

Offline Innominate

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Deterring suicide attacks...
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2002, 10:36:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKDejaVu
And a scant 12 hours later, you could go back to your own country.

:rolleyes:

Ok, so you use a second account.

People already do the same to spy, screw with CVs, etc.  Why wouldnt they do it when they could have an even bigger effect on the game?

Offline AKDejaVu

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Deterring suicide attacks...
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2002, 12:31:13 PM »
LOL! OK.. so someone uses a second account.  There's not really anything you can do to protect against it anyway.  As you've stated... there's already things someone could exploit.

Now... the only thing they could do is manage to knock 5 minutes of rebuild time off a base, that takes them 6 minutes to get to... allowing them to take some 24 minutes to knock 20 minutes of rebuild time off.

It seems to be a pretty serious stretch of "exploitation".  An EXTREMELY serious stretch.

AKDejaVu

Offline Innominate

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Deterring suicide attacks...
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2002, 01:13:49 PM »
While they are spending 24 minutes knocking off that 20minutes, you get 44 minutes of rebuild time in 24 minutes.  So they can only double the rebuild speed, thats not the slightest bit helpfull. :rolleyes:

Just because there are exploitable problems with the systems now, doesn't mean that it's okay to add more.  Nothing should be intentionally added which can be so openly exploited, especially when it's only marginally usefull in the first place.

Offline VOR

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Deterring suicide attacks...
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2002, 01:38:22 PM »
Get these die-hard simulation-vs-game types to CAP all the important facilities...even if it means being on station in a no action area instead of heading for the enemy. Might even add to their realism experience to find that they get bored now and then in the air.