Brittish didn't sink the Bismark

[Turbot]

If they had known what we know today, they coulda captured her.

[Charon]

That follows what I've read RAM. The point to consider is not how long the Bismarck stayed afloat, but how quickly it was put out of action once the battle started.

One point with Prince of Wales. It was not just a few turret malfunctions to consider (though these are critical failures) but the fact that it wasn't really a trained ship. I can't imagine it had a great deal of combat effectiveness, though it did manage to score some hits (that caused inportant damage).

Charon

[EDO43]

YES!!!! ADD MORE JAPANISE AIRPLANES TO AH!!!! WE NEED MORE FLYING ZIPPO'S

Gimme the Ki-84 or 44 and I'll flame your 51/F4U/47/Yak/La5-7/Fw190 anytime.  (N1K-2Ja's excluded until such time as an inflight comparison yields the better aircraft)  

Whoops, almost forgot you spit drivers out there....LOL

[Sakai]

Originally posted by Tilt
Next we will hear that the Bismark was sunk despite British attempts to save it.........

Actually, the Bismarck served through the end of the war, it flew numerous raids against London and throughout the Soviet Union, accounting for 1.2 million tons of bombs dropped and 338 enemy planes.  Therefore the flying Bismarck must be modeled to support the need for a German heavy in this game.

These claims that it was actuallly sunk are lies and old stories, the captured Bismarck ws noted by several alcoholics to have flown wonderfully, to quote:  "She never sinks, never."

Sakai

[Majors]

Hi Mates

Think what most people missed in the Discovery Channel episode was the comment at the end was that the Bismark would have sunk no matter what.  The scuttle was just shooting an already dead horse.  Every historian I have read on the subject agrees.

What next?

Keep the blue side up.

Majors

[OIO]

I consider the Graf Spee and the Deuchtland pocket battleships to be far superior than the Bismark for "the war effort"

They were faster.

Well armed (11 inchers)

Well armored

SMALL

"Cheaper".

The bismark was really just a floating "death star", which ironically had some kid from some farm fly the "trench" and put a "torpedo" in its only "real" weakspot, the rudder.

Bismark wouldve been sunk one way or another in or just after her first sortie, just like the Tirpitz was blasted from the air, so wouldve (actually.. it did) the bismark. You just cant hide or protect that thing from the air.

Now, the Yamato and Musashi.. those things wouldve scared the living crap out of the RN if they were loose in the atlantic.

[runny]

I don't believe anybody ever said that the "Brittish" sank the "Bismark."

[RRAM]

Originally posted by OIO
I consider the Graf Spee and the Deuchtland pocket battleships to be far superior than the Bismark for "the war effort"

They were faster.

Well armed (11 inchers)

Well armored

SMALL

"Cheaper".
 

1- the Graf Spees (actually they were the "Deutschlands", as they were three ships, the "Deutschland" -later called "Lutzow"-, the "Admiral Scheer", and the "Graf Spee" which was the latest), were slower than the Bismarcks. The Bismarcks were 29 knot ships while the Graf Spees were good for just over 27 knots, usually less.

2- for the task they had (merchant raiders), six 8-inch guns would've been as good as the six 11' guns the Deutschlands had, and they would've been much lighter, thus allowing a higher top speed.

3- believe it or not, the Deutschlands were not  better armored than a british light cruiser. In any case they weren't armored enough to prevent getting badly damaged by 6 inch guns, which was quite bad.

4- they were small and cheap, yes. But they didn't cause the awe the Bismarcks did.


Honestly I think the Graf Spees were as bad an inversion as the Bismarcks were. All that metal could've gone to U-boats, which surely would'be been much more useful for Germany.

[vorticon]

damn americans always trying to stop the british from taking credit for stuff...and i thought the nazi propoganda during the war was high...









-vort,,,painfully resisting screeming and kicking someone for this blatant misconjuration of facts

[GScholz]

LOL guys!

The short version: The Bismarck blew the Hood out of the water. The British got mad, and blew the Bismarck out of the water. End of story.

[Thrawn]

I have to agree Ram, it appears that the British technology is damn better then the Germans, that a 16 year older british ship should have been on even keel with a modern German ship.


This probably explains why RAF was so damn superior to the Luftwaffe as well.

Ram, and thanks for finally seeing the light.

[vorticon]

Easy ... Nobody's trying to "knock" the Brits (except the obvious Trolls  ). However I don't consider the sinking of Bismarck "courageous" on the part of the British. Nearly every capital ship in the UK home fleet descended upon "him" while he was unmaneuverable due to the Swordfish torpedo hit. Bismarck never stood a chance. The 8 big 15" guns of Bismarck wasn't THAT big. Several UK battleships had 14" or 15" guns, and HMS Rodney had nine 16". He was outnumbered, out gunned, and outmaneuvered. The thing to fear about the Bismarck was his advanced radar controlled gun-directors.

1 you refer to a ship as a he...not a good idea unless your in a land locked state

as for the rest...welll wernt the jap's technically outnumbered when you dropped the nuclear bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki

hmmm you americans seem to also think that your people at the battle of midway were couragouse...and they were definatly outnumbered and out gunned. the victors make the history.

and the bismark had a big chance...they could have pretended to be dead in the water lured the british ships closer and at the right moment start blowing the hell outta them.

[GScholz]

Originally posted by vorticon
1 you refer to a ship as a he...not a good idea unless your in a land locked state

as for the rest...welll wernt the jap's technically outnumbered when you dropped the nuclear bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki

hmmm you americans seem to also think that your people at the battle of midway were couragouse...and they were definatly outnumbered and out gunned. the victors make the history.

and the bismark had a big chance...they could have pretended to be dead in the water lured the british ships closer and at the right moment start blowing the hell outta them.

The Bismarck was referred to as "he" (at least by the Germans) because "he" was named after the great Prussian chancellor who unified Germany under the Prussian crown.

I do not consider the US atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki courageous.

I do consider the US airmen courageous during the battle for Midway. They flew unescorted at the very extreme of their operational range to reach the IJN fleet, at a time where the Zeke was still the superior fighter in the Pacific theatre. It was a hard fought battle on both sides. Luck and guile won the day for the US.

[hazed-]

yeah but at midway th americans didnt SINK those jap carriers, they were scuttled!

the yanks didnt sink em , the Sea water inside em sank them

oh er , what else can i spew out to annoy the americans who take offence to me spewing watermelon about what were in fact very brave men??

his thread was posted purely to try and take away the victory of the brits and try to get in a cheap shot at us brits who will obviously get annoyed by the statement 'brits didnt sink the bismark'.

I think youre dispicable No2000 and thats all i need say about it.

[LePaul]

How do you scuttle a ship?

I understand that in a sub, just nose her in

But if the hull is intact, how'd she get down there?

Just wondering....