Author Topic: Ostwind Data  (Read 905 times)

Offline Turbot

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Ostwind Data
« on: December 11, 2002, 01:30:34 PM »
I am confused - I was going to look up how well an Ostwind gun should do when I ran across an unexpected problem.   The data I find on the Ostwind indicates a different gun than our AH uses.

Typical Example (So far all are saying same thing):



Looks right, but...

Primary weapon 3.7cm Fla.K. 43
Ammunition 400 rounds

http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/equipment-panzer-4-ostwind.htm

Others:

http://www.militarygameronline.com/Panzer/flak-panzer.htm  - "The FlakPanzer IV "Ostwind" (East Wind) was similar to the Wirbelwind, which it was intended to replace, but carried the more powerful 3.7cm AA gun in a different turret. Only 43 were constructed.  "

http://www.panzerworld.net/Ostwind.htm  

I have found no reference at all yet for a Ostwind with a Flak 18 as main gun as listed in AH Help File data on Ostwind.  Is this a typo?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2002, 01:40:57 PM by Turbot »

Offline Citabria

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« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2002, 01:52:12 PM »
ammo load to 400 rouns would make it less effective as a town and field killer.
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Offline Lazerus1

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« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2002, 02:06:18 PM »
I also read somewhere on this board that the main gun had 6- round clips that were manually loaded.
Sounds like a great idea to me. It might scale back the effectiveness enough to get it below what many people see as 'perk worthy'.

Offline Turbot

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« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2002, 02:13:23 PM »
Ostwind Gun Performance (If I looked up right one)

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/germany/guns.html

3.7cm FlaK 43 L/89  
ammo PzGr18
ammo wieght lbs 1.4
Velocity 2,526'/s
100 meters  35mm penetration
500 meters 28mm
1000 meters 21mm
1500 meters 17mm

 

The Flak 18 - the AH Gun (if I am reading this stuff right - then it is indeed a typo in the AH Help Pages and we have somethign like above)
8.8cm (that would be 88mm) FlaK 18 L/56,
ammo type PzGr
ammo weight lbs 20.9
velocity 2,657'/s
100 meters 97
500 meters 93
1000 meters 87
1500 meters 80  
2000 meters 72  
« Last Edit: December 11, 2002, 02:24:07 PM by Turbot »

Offline flakbait

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« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2002, 02:37:19 PM »
Handbook on German Military Forces, page 381, has a Flak 43 down as the type of gun used. The specs for the Flak 43 are on page 348, while the Flak 18 specs are on page 347. German Tanks of WW2, page 78, also states the Flak 43 was used. The magazine capacity of 4,216 rounds given in this book is WAY off. The 400 round figure above is correct.

The Flak 43 is differentiates from the Flak 18 as follows

Barrel length: 1 foot shorter
Weight: 1,120 lbs lighter (fixed implacement gun's weight)
Rate of fire: At least 140 rpm faster

It's been wrong since introduction. I don't know if it's only a typo, and Pyro used the Flak 43 specs. Or if Pyro stuck to the Flak 18 specs instead of using the correct gun.

And yes, only 43 Ostwinds were made.




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Offline AtmkRstr

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« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2002, 02:51:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Citabria
ammo load to 400 rouns would make it less effective as a town and field killer.


Good point!  Maybe it should be lowered to 400 even if other sources say it carried 1000 rounds.

Offline wulfie

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« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2002, 02:13:43 AM »
Turbot,

The 3.7cm FlaK 18 and the 8.8cm FlaK 18 both existed.

8.8cm FlaK 18 and 8.8cm FlaK 36 were basically the same weapon - differences were in sights used and minor differences in carriage between the 2 guns.

The 3.7cm FlaK 18 was the primary 3.7cm AA weapon of the German armed forces until early '44 (even then it was by far more common than the 3.7cm FlaK 43 ever was). The SdKfz based SPAA vehicles that carried 3.7cm weapons carried the FlaK 18 version.

Also, brief (German) gun glossary:

FlaK = AA gun (duh)
PaK = AT gun
KwK = vehicle mounted gun

7.5cm PaK 40 = 75L48 AT gun
7.5cm KwK 40 = 75L48 MA for Pz IVH, Pz IVJ

Mike/wulfie

Offline brady

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« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2002, 02:28:41 AM »
Enclyopida of German tanks of WW2 says the osty caried 1,000 rouds for the Main gun.

 P111  

  Armament: one 3.7cm FlaK43/1 L/60 ammo 1,000 rounds.

 On page 109 it does list for the 3.7cm Flak auf Fahrgestell, the Sd Kfz 161/3 which had the 3.7cm Flak43 L/60(a slightly different gun) an ammo load out of only 416 rounds, this was a total different AA tank, the Mobelwagen, the gun being mounted in the open when in use and enclosed with a very limited degree of fire forward when not being used as an aa tank, the sides folding down to provide a firing platform.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2002, 02:35:20 AM by brady »

Offline brady

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« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2002, 02:40:20 AM »
The six round clips were loaded onto a tray which held 12 rounds total, as the gun consumed the first 6 the loader simply laid the next clip on the tray in this way continious firing was possable, the gun could fire till the tube melt or hell froze over or they ran outa ammo.

Offline brady

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« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2002, 02:46:21 AM »
Turbot, I do beleave those penatration figures are for penatration aganst a 30 degree slope at those ranges which would make that gun far more effective aganst the flat plate armor of the Panzer/osty, M3/M16.I have a referance that sights simmilar figures hear with me that is for that aganst a 30 degree slope.

Offline Tony Williams

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« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2002, 07:38:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by brady
Turbot, I do beleave those penatration figures are for penatration aganst a 30 degree slope at those ranges which would make that gun far more effective aganst the flat plate armor of the Panzer/osty, M3/M16.I have a referance that sights simmilar figures hear with me that is for that aganst a 30 degree slope.


The figures seem poor even so. I don't know if these guns were available with the PzGr 40 Hartkernmunition load used in the BK 3,7 (it used the same ammo) but this could penetrate up to 140mm/100m/90 degrees.

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Offline brady

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« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2002, 09:11:57 AM »
I cant imagine a Vehical like this not cariing some AP ammo, seeing their is tons of evidance(photographic and otherwise ) indacating thier use aganst ground targets on numiours ocashions.

Offline Shiva

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« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2002, 09:57:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Turbot
3.7cm FlaK 43 L/89  
ammo PzGr18
ammo wieght lbs 1.4
Velocity 2,526'/s
100 meters  35mm penetration
500 meters 28mm
1000 meters 21mm
1500 meters 17mm


NOTE:

This performance is for the Panzergranate 18 shell, not the Sprenggranate 18 shell. The penetration tables are for AP solid-shot rounds, not the high-explosive shells that the Ostwind is firing in the game.

Look at Deutsche FlaK (German) or the English translation, and scroll down to 37mm FlaK, then look at the 'Model 43' column. The table also gives maximum ranges -- 6500m for ground fire, 4800m altitude -- that people can use to decide when they're out of range for firing at an aircraft; of course, most of the time, the range/altitude tradeoff isn't that easy to determine...

If you're going to give the Ostwind the armor penetration of the solid-shot AP round, then it's going to have to lose the blast effect of the HE round -- or the other way around. Or make Ostwind drivers make the same AP-vs-HE tradeoff that the PzKpfw IV drivers have to, and make them switch ammunition.

The 3.7cm FlaK 18/36/43 could fire HEI (high explosive incendiary -- 'Brandsprenggranate'), AP ('Panzergranate') with and without tracer, HE ('Sprenggranate') with tracer, incendiary ('Brandgranate') with and without tracer, and mine shells ('Minengranate' -- presumably the same  type of shell as the 'Minengeschloss' round for the MG/FF and MG 151/20) with tracer. If you're going to give the Ostwind's shells the armor penetration of the AP shell and the blast effect of the HE shell, then do the same thing for the PzKpfw IV's ammunition loadout and drop all this crap about having to pick your AP/HE tradeoff. Or fix the Ostwind so that it's firing HE, not AP, and stop letting it carve Panzers into cheese.

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2002, 10:23:07 AM »
I have found the 1000 round ammo figure on several web sites and in the book Bradey mentioned. I think the 416 is a far more reasonable number...But the 1000 one is out there for sure.
Why a mobel wagon..that doenst have the turrent basket would carry half the number of rounds that the ostwind would carry is wierd.

Offline daflea

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« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2002, 11:40:35 AM »
What I find most interesting in the data for the FlaK 43 is the listed rate of fire..250 rounds per mimute, if an accurate figure thats a lot of firepower.